number one wrote:I have no idea where you are getting your info from but it is so wrong its untrue!!
I'm making a point not getting this information from a specific location.
You are employed to perform specific duties for an employer, and paid to do those for a specified length of time over a specified frequency. If you have performed your usual duties but have not exhausted the time allocated to you for that dayt, then why is it wrong that your employer wishes for you to make up that deficit in time worked?
Show me where it says that an employee cannot work outdoors in any day for combined periods and exceed 3½ hours. If you do then I'm happy to be wrong. I only recall seeing information for single delivery spans, hence the point of my post.
It's a rather silly point,
I have met some real bast*rd managers in my time.
But since 2003 i have never known one to send someone back out after a 3.5hour walking delivery.
If this is true then the way Royal Mail can bring in the 5hr+ delivery is simply by saying "you are spending less time indoors so you can do one and a half walks today" this would be one walk at 3.30hrs and your half walk at 1.45hr pushing your outdoor working hours to 5.15. But because Its classed as one and a half walks not one walk at 5.15 then everything is ok? I think not!
fishtank wrote:But since 2003 i have never known one to send someone back out after a 3.5hour walking delivery.
That's exactly one of the points of the absorption you're discussing. When you've completed your duty, (3½ hours in an ideal world), and you return to the DO at 13:15 with a duty time finish scheduled for 13:35, (because you're still taking your 40 min break at the end of your 14:15 official finish time), they can send you back out for up to 20 minutes. that may mean that you've been outdoors working for more than 3½ hours but is quite within the ruleset.
fishtank wrote:But since 2003 i have never known one to send someone back out after a 3.5hour walking delivery.
That's exactly one of the points of the absorption you're discussing. When you've completed your duty, (3½ hours in an ideal world), and you return to the DO at 13:15 with a duty time finish scheduled for 13:35, (because you're still taking your 40 min break at the end of your 14:15 official finish time), they can send you back out for up to 20 minutes. that may mean that you've been outdoors working for more than 3½ hours but is quite within the ruleset.
No,I have had this conversation with a few managers.
It may be within the ruleset but would not be worth the hassle.
What all of them have said is that they would ask you to work indoors for 20 mins.
Last edited by fishtank on 29 Dec 2009, 23:05, edited 1 time in total.
number one wrote:If this is true then the way Royal Mail can bring in the 5hr+ delivery is simply by saying "you are spending less time indoors so you can do one and a half walks today" this would be one walk at 3.30hrs and your half walk at 1.45hr pushing your outdoor working hours to 5.15. But because Its classed as one and a half walks not one walk at 5.15 then everything is ok? I think not!
It is, as long as an agreed, (with H&S and/or CWU), seperator is found to distinguish those as defined two spans and not one.
It wouldn't surprise me if they ask you to take half of your meal relief before delivery span one, then the other half on return before redeploying outdoor work accordingly. Currently I would fail to see how this can could be argued from a Health and Safety standpoint too!
fishtank wrote:But since 2003 i have never known one to send someone back out after a 3.5hour walking delivery.
That's exactly one of the points of the absorption you're discussing. When you've completed your duty, (3½ hours in an ideal world), and you return to the DO at 13:15 with a duty time finish scheduled for 13:35, (because you're still taking your 40 min break at the end of your 14:15 official finish time), they can send you back out for up to 20 minutes. that may mean that you've been outdoors working for more than 3½ hours but is quite within the ruleset.
No,I have had this conversation with a few managers.
It may be within the ruleset but would not be worth the hassle.
What all of them has said is that they would ask you to work indoors for 20 mins.
It's what we've been doing on Summer Lapsing for the last couple of years anyhow, (delivering up to 20 minutes of another duty on return from our own).
fishtank wrote:But since 2003 i have never known one to send someone back out after a 3.5hour walking delivery.
That's exactly one of the points of the absorption you're discussing. When you've completed your duty, (3½ hours in an ideal world), and you return to the DO at 13:15 with a duty time finish scheduled for 13:35, (because you're still taking your 40 min break at the end of your 14:15 official finish time), they can send you back out for up to 20 minutes. that may mean that you've been outdoors working for more than 3½ hours but is quite within the ruleset.
No,I have had this conversation with a few managers.
It may be within the ruleset but would not be worth the hassle.
What all of them has said is that they would ask you to work indoors for 20 mins.
It's what we've been doing on Summer Lapsing for the last couple of years anyhow, (delivering up to 20 minutes of another duty on return from our own).
I don't know the facts but if you have been delivering for 3.30 and then lapsing another 20 mins then something is wrong in your office.
Lapsing is supposed to be absorbed into EXISTING outdoor workload.
Phase 3 makes no mention of delivery spans, sad but true it says and i quote
within approved attendance times/normal paid work hours.
Like or not Dave and co forget to dot the i's and cross the t's and got away with by not putting phase 3 to a vote.
Is it any wonder Conference 2008 agreed that all future national agreements would be subjected to a plain english test.
In my postcode area a senior manager saw phase 3 and delivery spans as deliveries being planned on 3.5 hours but if absorbing outdoor work takes somebody over 3.5 hours but not overtheir duty time then that is allowed for under phase 3.
That however was in effect walking away from a area agreement that said absorbing outside work should be done within the 3.5 hour span.
The question is if a area delivery rep can realise the need to get a Specific mention of delivery spans into phase 3 why didnt Dave and co?
It was AGREED with H&S and RM and the CWU that these walks would be 3.5 hours,Why are you looking to extend this?
I never indicated i was looking to extend it, im merley debating the meaning of the exact words in certain national agreements.
At this moment in time as a OPG im sitting on the fence for longer del spans. When the time comes I shall carefully consider ALL arguments for and against.
3.5 hours was chosen over 4hour span due to H and S , BUT what if those H and S concerns can be rectified now we are nearly 7 years down the line, is there not a argument to revisit 4 hour spans in that case.
It was AGREED with H&S and RM and the CWU that these walks would be 3.5 hours,Why are you looking to extend this?
I never indicated i was looking to extend it, im merley debating the meaning of the exact words in certain national agreements.
At this moment in time as a OPG im sitting on the fence for longer del spans. When the time comes I shall carefully consider ALL arguments for and against.
3.5 hours was chosen over 4hour span due to H and S , BUT what if those H and S concerns can be rectified now we are nearly 7 years down the line, is there not a argument to revisit 4 hour spans in that case.
Does anyone know what the H&S issues were. Regarding the 4 hour spans, that would roughly equal a duty plus absorption as it is (albeit running consecutively). An outlined PT day uses up the 5 hours per day as it is, would this mean, for example, a 25 hour PT duty going up to 27.5 hours to acommodate the extra workload. There are so many differing PT contracts hour wise, but no determined work span to fit the hours as there is for FT so no one really knows where they stand.
I don't want to get into an argument with f/t staff but would just like to breakdown what i have to do in 4hr 48 min.
Packet Bag 15-20 min
re-directions 10 mins (fluctuates per duty)
Bag up 20 mins
Lapse 15 mins (including travelling time
Break 20 mins
Travel out to duty (this can be anything in between (10-20 mins
Delivery 3.5
travel back from duty 10-20 mins
total=5.20 taking in lower etimates
This does not include any mail that we have to throw up on a daily basis when we come in.So for those f/t who think we have time to do lapsing think again even on a quiet day and duty takes three hours we get done just about so i suggest p/t lapse on a tuesday only as this is the only day we may have time.What does'nt help p/t cause is f/t coming in early and throwing there mech stuff up before they go on ips as this means u work for free and when royal mail see u finishing early they think that everyone is the same and we are NOT these people are SELFISH TWATS WHO HAVE COST PEOPLE THERE JOBS wake up and smell the coffee u buffoons.
If I manage to get out on delivery at 9am and my round takes me 3.30hrs the time is now 12.30 but.... Im paid till 14.45 so what is to happen here??
The management will see it as you are getting out too early.
Not enough indoor work to fill your day. So they will find you work, you get out later, and "work all the hours you are paid"
What work they will find to keep you occupied is the question. I feel that they see the solution to the problem is to increase the delivery span past 3.5 hours. Van sharing , high capacity prams and the rest, are being introduced to facilitate the longer delivery span. Throw into the mix monthly pay, increased D2D, absorption, shorter working week and other tat (maybe a one off payment so sweeten it all) not forgetting the that our lives will be easier when we have the sequencing machines (delivering mail to the DO much later than we get it now)...the future is a longer delivery span, and a later start to the day.
dropbag_clone wrote:If I manage to get out on delivery at 9am and my round takes me 3.30hrs the time is now 12.30 but.... Im paid till 14.45 so what is to happen here??
The management will see it as you are getting out too early.
Not enough indoor work to fill your day. So they will find you work, you get out later, and "work all the hours you are paid"
What work they will find to keep you occupied is the question. I feel that they see the solution to the problem is to increase the delivery span past 3.5 hours. Van sharing , high capacity prams and the rest, are being introduced to facilitate the longer delivery span. Throw into the mix monthly pay, increased D2D, absorption, shorter working week and other tat (MAYBE A ONE OFF PAYMENT not forgetting the that our lives will be easier when we have the sequencing machines (delivering mail to the DO much later than we get it now)...the future is a longer delivery span, and a later start to the day.
Sorry to say, but while Rome burns, the highlighted part above is all most Meercats and the sheep in our D.O's will filter out .. The majority of the briefings will be just white noise, whilst they talk to their mates during WTLAL meetings. They'll go away saying.." I dunno what was said , I was texting me bird and all I heard was we're getting £400 ! sweeet" .
Yet again, we'll sell our souls for a one off payment - the short term fix for yet another long time solution. But this time, it'a gonna be much more painful than all the others combined.
