Mediation Update : CWU and Royal Mail have now agreed the external mediator

jetblack · Post by **jetblack** » 26 Oct 2017, 19:04

TrueBlueTerrier wrote:I, however, get what Fishtank is saying.

So do I TBT - and lets face it, we all want a resolution.

The question is, is where is the 'middle ground' ?

The idea that RMG will put forward their best proposal during mediation is wrong in my view. This is game theory. What they will put forward is a deal that masquerades as their best proposal (or 99% best at least) given the context of 'last ditch' negotiations. Truth be told they had this on the cards 18 months back.
And then the union is supposed to lap it up and sell it to the members as a good deal.
And everyone lives happily ever after. Except me. I'm £2k a year worse off in retirement. But hey - if it weren't for the union I'd be £3k a year worse off etc etc. Bollocks.

Make or break for the union in my view. I believe there is a real will for change amongst the membership - and the deals sealed in the past with the pressing of palms and the slapping of backs could very well not cut the mustard this time around.

We'll see.

In my view the 'middle ground' is still way too far across in RMG territory for my liking. If Corbyn is correct - and the 2017 election result would suggest that he is - then the middle ground has shifted.
What does that mean ? That means that we don't have to accept the terms laid down to us from the corporate big boys at a High Court judge instigated 'mediation'. It means that we have agency and the power to decide how this pans out for us.

fishtank · Post by **fishtank** » 26 Oct 2017, 19:13

The way you describe it it all sounds as if its pre-ordained.

It's a dance we've danced before to a tune we all know and our dance partner is the same. Why wouldn't it follow the same steps?
There are always variables but the basics are the same, this isn't a class war or a socialist uprising it's about as capitalist as you can get in that mediation room, they want this and we want that...let's do business. We won't get our way and neither will they but a deal will be done.

walkthewalk · Post by **walkthewalk** » 26 Oct 2017, 19:14

Simple question is why is this woman in charge of Royal Mail, she holds 2 jobs and it has taken her over 12 months to actually attend a meeting with our Union surely this mediator can suss that out after looking at her obscene pay packet in that period, we are actually a communications company so what communication has she made all this will be taken into account and like Pullinger states we will not be strung along because that is what's been happening.

fishtank · Post by **fishtank** » 26 Oct 2017, 19:23

What they will put forward is a deal that masquerades as their best proposal

If you enter a dispute thinking that every offer is not a genuine best offer you'll never exit that dispute. At some point you have to make the call and the call in this case would be would the threat of strike action in January move this offer substantially ( it would have to be substantially or you're chasing crumbs again ) It's always a tough call, it's an even tougher call having lost the pressure of a pre-Christmas strike. It's not something to trust to "game theory". It's an experience thing.

jetblack · Post by **jetblack** » 26 Oct 2017, 19:29

Lets see what they put on the table.

Given that the WinRS has been costed and is affordable I'm struggling to see why any offer from RMG/Blackrock would fall short of this TBH - we aren't asking for the status quo (DB scheme as is) after all.

We'll see.

fishtank · Post by **fishtank** » 26 Oct 2017, 20:41

WinRS is a non starter as far as royal mail is concerned, not because of the cost but the risk. The pension will be the toughest part of the negotiations. It may have to be decoupled if they're getting nowhere. I can't really see how they'll come together on that. Their positions are still miles apart but the union has to be careful, pensions will split the membership.

jetblack · Post by **jetblack** » 26 Oct 2017, 21:42

fishtank wrote:WinRS is a non starter as far as royal mail is concerned, not because of the cost but the risk.

Nope - its a non starter due to the cost. The risk is shared between them and us - unlike the current DB scheme where the risk is all theirs. Risk only has any meaning in this context as an inverse function of cost.

You'd have thought the WinRS would be a happy middle ground wouldn't you - but the greedy bastards on Wall Street/the City have their hearts set on shifting both the cost and risk onto the humble postie - thereby ensuring stellar returns to their equity portfolios.

Pensions are central to the current dispute - the issue should definitely not be 'decoupled'.

jetblack · Post by **jetblack** » 26 Oct 2017, 21:48

fishtank wrote:
If you enter a dispute thinking that every offer is not a genuine best offer you'll never exit that dispute.

And if you enter a dispute thinking that every offer is a genuine best offer you'll end up spending your entire working life shovelling s**t for thri'pence ha'penny.

wandle · Post by **wandle** » 27 Oct 2017, 00:09

I don't see how the pension issue can be 'decoupled' from all the other issues, and sorted at a later date.

The current Defined Benefit scheme is CLOSING in April 2018. If talks on all the other issues drag on beyond Christmas, a deal is struck, put out to members to vote on, and accepted, we'll be in late-January at best before pensions talks could re-start. That leaves only 3 months before the scheme closes with potentially nothing to replace it. What happens then? We all get enrolled into the vastly inferior DC scheme by default ??

Post by **TrueBlueTerrier** » 27 Oct 2017, 06:38

walkthewalk wrote:Simple question is why is this woman in charge of Royal Mail, she holds 2 jobs and it has taken her over 12 months to actually attend a meeting with our Union surely this mediator can suss that out after looking at her obscene pay packet in that period, we are actually a communications company so what communication has she made all this will be taken into account and like Pullinger states we will not be strung along because that is what's been happening.

To the mediator that is all completely irrelevant. They don't look at the politics and machinations behind the scenes all they do is look at each case presented to them in a dispassionate manner and try to identify points of agreement and conflict. They don't even care if the agreement is fair or not, that's not their job.

Martin Walsh · Post by **Martin Walsh** » 27 Oct 2017, 09:53

wandle wrote:I don't see how the pension issue can be 'decoupled' from all the other issues, and sorted at a later date.

The current Defined Benefit scheme is CLOSING in April 2018. If talks on all the other issues drag on beyond Christmas, a deal is struck, put out to members to vote on, and accepted, we'll be in late-January at best before pensions talks could re-start. That leaves only 3 months before the scheme closes with potentially nothing to replace it. What happens then? We all get enrolled into the vastly inferior DC scheme by default ??

One of the options if progress is being made is to extend the closing date from March 2018. Remember whatever the new scheme is be that Royal Mail"s offer or the unions WINRs scheme or an hybrid of the two , they both need Government approval and the than setting up of the pension as well as admin. Additionally there is a surplus in the DB scheme which would allow an extension. In Post Office limited their pension scheme closure was extended by a year.

Yesterday Moya and Sue Whalley attended the talks for the first time which is significant as the buck stops with them from the shareholders view. The way mediation takes place is you can have talks if things are progressing or the mediator can simply make recommendations.

Members need to be aware that not all the issues at the heart of the dispute can be settle before Christmas as some will require Government approval i.e. pensions and others will be following trials of new ways of working.

jetblack · Post by **jetblack** » 27 Oct 2017, 17:37

dingo wrote:Just to confirm the CWU and Royal Mail have now agreed the external mediator from the agreed panel.

Her name is Lynette Harris from ACAS.

Lynette Harris of Nottingham Business School.

Do you know who I would have wanted as mediator ?

Post by **rogersh** » 27 Oct 2017, 21:01

I would assume Terry Pullinger will use the same negotiating officers who are Andy Furey, Davie Robertson & Mark Baulch.

Moya Greene is going to lead Royal Mail’s negotiating team on the external mediation process.

It would be interesting to know if the selected Royal Mail negotiating team are the same people that have been involved so far. If they are not then I would ask the question - why not.

Martin Walsh · Post by **Martin Walsh** » 27 Oct 2017, 21:40

Royal Mail’s negotiating team yesterday was led by Moya Greene and Sue Whalley. These two have not been involved in the negotiations previously. From Royal Mail’s point of view they now have the top two senior managers in the business in the talks. Additionally they had Mike Newby , Simon Barker , Anton Harding and Tony Fox within the talks.

The CWU were led by Terry and with the other Elected officers Andy , Davie , Ray and Mark.

Post by **nataddick** » 27 Oct 2017, 21:58

As I previously mentioned in the Pensions Forum somewhere, there was always a strong probability that the date for closure of RMPP would be deferred. RM targeted closure on 31 March 2018 and claim that the valuation ‘surplus’ will be extinguished in 2018 but have repeatedly failed to say exactly when in 2018, if at all - leaving themselves plenty of room for manoeuvre. Just surprised it took CWU so long to switch on to this obvious ‘fall back’ position, given it happened with the closure of the PO scheme !

Dingo, as always, appreciate your update and insight into the latest deliberations.