Revised Agreement -Deliver to Neighbour/First Time Delivery

[IloveMYredTROLLEY!]

I await to be issued with the gadget that tells me a particular neighbour is suitable to try and leave a parcel with, so that when something goes wrong, I can tell my boss that there must be a fault with the gadget. Faultless mind reading of the sincerity of every person on my walk is not a skill on my cv.

I also want to be equipped with the gadget that pauses time while I try to leave items with a neighbour and then return to the original address to leave a p739 stating whether the item is with a neighbour, or has gone back to the depot. The technology clearly exists, because the DTN trial results took no extra time and this fact was not challenged to our knowledge.

Besides the extra workload on top of duty structures that already need considerable overtime to complete in full, I'm not prepared to put my head on the chopping board every time I leave a parcel with a neighbour.
What happens if the recipient cannot retrieve their parcel from the neighbour?
What if the recipient collects the item and then finds the item open (and the neighbour claims ignorance)?
What if the recipient collects the item and discovers it is damaged (and the neighbour claims it was handed over like that)?

Then there is those stickers we now fill in on parcels that go back to the depot. The idea is fine, but it is now just another daily task that eats into contracted time that had no spare to begin with. Beforehand we wrote something like "nafl 18/6" on the parcels straight after the inability to deliver it securely. Now we need to find the sticker roll; remove a sticker; place it sensibly on the item; fill in the date/ walk no./ our initials. Oh and now apparently tell the truth if we tried to leave it with a neighbour.

If we want to talk about protecting jobs, lets start with the basics, starting on time; using our paid breaks (with the agreed option of "tagging" the outdoor break onto our depot leave time); "filtering" mail for the next address while standing still (you might not believe how much extra time this takes if done properly); using delivery methods equipment correctly and not putting weight on our shoulder. If these basics were adhered to throughout the country, practically every depot would need an injection of hours and possibly jobs (depending upon the aspirations of the part-time workforce already in place).

[steve1873]

I await to be issued with the gadget that tells me a particular neighbour is suitable to try and leave a parcel with, so that when something goes wrong, I can tell my boss that there must be a fault with the gadget. Faultless mind reading of the sincerity of every person on my walk is not a skill on my cv.

I also want to be equipped with the gadget that pauses time while I try to leave items with a neighbour and then return to the original address to leave a p739 stating whether the item is with a neighbour, or has gone back to the depot. The technology clearly exists, because the DTN trial results took no extra time and this fact was not challenged to our knowledge.

Besides the extra workload on top of duty structures that already need considerable overtime to complete in full, I'm not prepared to put my head on the chopping board every time I leave a parcel with a neighbour.
What happens if the recipient cannot retrieve their parcel from the neighbour?
What if the recipient collects the item and then finds the item open (and the neighbour claims ignorance)?
What if the recipient collects the item and discovers it is damaged (and the neighbour claims it was handed over like that)?

Then there is those stickers we now fill in on parcels that go back to the depot. The idea is fine, but it is now just another daily task that eats into contracted time that had no spare to begin with. Beforehand we wrote something like "nafl 18/6" on the parcels straight after the inability to deliver it securely. Now we need to find the sticker roll; remove a sticker; place it sensibly on the item; fill in the date/ walk no./ our initials. Oh and now apparently tell the truth if we tried to leave it with a neighbour.

If we want to talk about protecting jobs, lets start with the basics, starting on time; using our paid breaks (with the agreed option of "tagging" the outdoor break onto our depot leave time); "filtering" mail for the next address while standing still (you might not believe how much extra time this takes if done properly); using delivery methods equipment correctly and not putting weight on our shoulder. If these basics were adhered to throughout the country, practically every depot would need an injection of hours and possibly jobs (depending upon the aspirations of the part-time workforce already in place).

TBF I don't think you can have any complaints with the stickers - that has been proper procedure at least since I started in 2003. All we do is keep a roll of stickers in back of van in the wee bit behind the doors or you can use cable ties to make a contraption of sorts to hold the roll in a place of your choosing. It doesn't take any longer since a lot of the time you don't even need to take the parcel out of your pouch until you are back at the van anyway.

I agree 100% on all of your other points however.

[Martin Walsh]

I will try and deal with the points does it take longer to delivery to neighbour yes ! However you also have to address that say you returned 5 items to the callers offices as 739 then let's just 3 of those customers requested that the item is redelivered on a Saturday then you would be adding time to the Saturday as additional attendance calls when if you attempted a d2n then you may not have needed too. Of course a customer can choose to make the journey to collect the item sometimes que up to collect their parcel and be really thrilled at this great customer experience.

Now a 739 complaint and it has now taken over the top spot from Mis delivery is when a customer complains that they have been left a 739 card when they say they were in ! Now the complaints come under checks from the regulator and Royal Mail have to investigate it then pay off the customer.

Now in terms of TBT the union does listen to the members , we have just had an agreement endorsed by the membership which sets out how the union will move issues forward. We have regular meetings with reps , members and listen as well as speak.

But and there is a but a member who knows his office does not necessary see what is happening in the other 1600 other delivery offices , what is happening in the other parts of the industry , what of comm are doing , what Amazon is doing , what TNT is doing and having an impact and what Royal Mail are facing and what the CWU are having to address.

Now let's be clear here TBT on this site alone there are difference of opinions on Saturdays , delivery spans , productivity , start times and an hundred and one other things listening is one thing but which view point holds sway the one who wants no change and any thing which is either more work or different work as a sell out or the view which says that any company which has lost 30% of Amazon parcels and 14% of letter traffic to TNT in less than a year needs to react and try and listen to what Amazon wants to regain that work.

Of comm is not listening and claim that until Royal Mail address effierency they will not act. Now we can all continue to disregard that but the union cannot especially as Royal Mail have to submit a report to of comm within 2 weeks.

Look maybe I should leave the site cause it's clearly too much for some to have a grown up debate and instead they either attack London , attack the CWU or attack me personally.

Over and out and I will leave you all believe that everything is ok and the only problem is that we are being asked to do more ! And the answer to our problem is too work our time when revenue and traffic in some of the areas have fallen through the floor.

[steve1873]

I will try and deal with the points does it take longer to delivery to neighbour yes ! However you also have to address that say you returned 5 items to the callers offices as 739 then let's just 3 of those customers requested that the item is redelivered on a Saturday then you would be adding time to the Saturday as additional attendance calls when if you attempted a d2n then you may not have needed too. Of course a customer can choose to make the journey to collect the item sometimes que up to collect their parcel and be really thrilled at this great customer experience.

Now a 739 complaint and it has now taken over the top spot from Mis delivery is when a customer complains that they have been left a 739 card when they say they were in ! Now the complaints come under checks from the regulator and Royal Mail have to investigate it then pay off the customer.

Now in terms of TBT the union does listen to the members , we have just had an agreement endorsed by the membership which sets out how the union will move issues forward. We have regular meetings with reps , members and listen as well as speak.

But and there is a but a member who knows his office does not necessary see what is happening in the other 1600 other delivery offices , what is happening in the other parts of the industry , what of comm are doing , what Amazon is doing , what TNT is doing and having an impact and what Royal Mail are facing and what the CWU are having to address.

Now let's be clear here TBT on this site alone there are difference of opinions on Saturdays , delivery spans , productivity , start times and an hundred and one other things listening is one thing but which view point holds sway the one who wants no change and any thing which is either more work or different work as a sell out or the view which says that any company which has lost 30% of Amazon parcels and 14% of letter traffic to TNT in less than a year needs to react and try and listen to what Amazon wants to regain that work.

Of comm is not listening and claim that until Royal Mail address effierency they will not act. Now we can all continue to disregard that but the union cannot especially as Royal Mail have to submit a report to of comm within 2 weeks.

Look maybe I should leave the site cause it's clearly too much for some to have a grown up debate and instead they either attack London , attack the CWU or attack me personally.

Over and out and I will leave you all believe that everything is ok and the only problem is that we are being asked to do more ! And the answer to our problem is too work our time when revenue and traffic in some of the areas have fallen through the floor.

And? That parcel then becomes part of Saturdays workload and at least you can put a figure on it regarding how long each attendance call will take roughly.

Will RM adjust the time allocated for attendance call by a factor of 2 to allow for DTN to be achievable in current delivery spans and deliveries adjusted as a result? If the answer to that is no, then quite simply YOU and your fellow union chums have failed in your duty to look after your members first and foremost.

You say this is about protecting jobs - what will your opinion be when locker staff are reduced by a third or half due to them having to serve less customers?

[chrisj]

The problem is that dingo is mixing everything up and that is because he is not actually in delivery...

Why? Lets take your issue about P739 complaints. Yes, there are some posties there that do not do their jobs properly but this has absolutely nothing to do with delivery to neighbours or first time delivery. That can be dealt with under quality of service - posties need to be more patient and wait for a while before they write a 739 card. But that is not the whole picture: some customers simply do not hear posties knock or ring, they might be in the garden on good sunny days or in the loo or whatever (some do not even bother getting up), so try to put yourself in the postman's shoes before making the sort of sweeping statement that RM execs make.

*** People not taking parcels out of the office are liable to be disciplined and it is something that can be easily dealt with through the PHGs. Moreover, most of us now work in P&L with a van so there is no excuse not to take the parcel along - it is just asking for trouble...

Another point: Amazon will continue to want this and want that until we are paid and treated like our competitors; and as a Union you should be aware of that - they are in a strong position and and blackmailing Royal Mail. To simply think that delivery to neighbour is one of the reasons Amazon is using other couriers and/or starting their own is not seeing the whole picture.

I do not understand why dingo is being so defensive when faced with the reality of delivery... Unless you are only experienced with inefficient offices then you can come out with the sort of comments you make. I do not see anything from the posts here that suggest that anyone can agree that delivery to neighbours do not add more time.

So you try to qualify that if we add the time for redelivery then the times might not be so different but that is not the issue facing the postie who has to fit his delivery within his contractual time. We do not go out worrying that the customer might ask for a redelivery and even if they do, that is something for another day - which might end up being a lighter day or you might find out that the same customer has even more parcels and the lot can be delivered at once.

I do not think most customers are particularly that bothered to go the delivery office to collect their parcel - where is the evidence that they do?

FYI - only a few customers actually ask for a redelivery or a delivery to the nearest Post Office - its not worth the hassle.


* Relent pursuits of what the opposition is doing or what the big clients want is only going to lead to a race to the bottom...

[steve1873]

The problem is that dingo is mixing everything up and that is because he is not actually in delivery...

Why? Lets take your issue about P739 complaints. Yes, there are some posties there that do not do their jobs properly but this has absolutely nothing to do with delivery to neighbours or first time delivery. That can be dealt with under quality of service - posties need to be more patient and wait for a while before they write a 739 card. But that is not the whole picture: some customers simply do not hear posties knock or ring, they might be in the garden on good sunny days or in the loo or whatever (some do not even bother getting up), so try to put yourself in the postman's shoes before making the sort of sweeping statement that RM execs make.

*** People not taking parcels out of the office are liable to be disciplined and it is something that can be easily dealt with through the PHGs. Moreover, most of us now work in P&L with a van so there is no excuse not to take the parcel along - it is just asking for trouble...

Another point: Amazon will continue to want this and want that until we are paid and treated like our competitors; and as a Union you should be aware of that - they are in a strong position and and blackmailing Royal Mail. To simply think that delivery to neighbour is one of the reasons Amazon is using other couriers and/or starting their own is not seeing the whole picture.

I do not understand why dingo is being so defensive when faced with the reality of delivery... Unless you are only experienced with inefficient offices then you can come out with the sort of comments you make. I do not see anything from the posts here that suggest that anyone can agree that delivery to neighbours do not add more time.

So you try to qualify that if we add the time for redelivery then the times might not be so different but that is not the issue facing the postie who has to fit his delivery within his contractual time. We do not go out worrying that the customer might ask for a redelivery and even if they do, that is something for another day - which might end up being a lighter day or you might find out that the same customer has even more parcels and the lot can be delivered at once.

I do not think most customers are particularly that bothered to go the delivery office to collect their parcel - where is the evidence that they do?

FYI - only a few customers actually ask for a redelivery or a delivery to the nearest Post Office - its not worth the hassle.


* Relent pursuits of what the opposition is doing or what the big clients want is only going to lead to a race to the bottom...

I had a run in with a customer on my previous delivery. She was adamant I hadn't rung or knocked, despite doing both (as I always do). I actually heard the doorbell ring from outside the property, still knocked out of habit, but she was adamant. Ended up telling her and showing her that I had the Special Delivery, asked her why I wouldn't ring or knock and have to carry around a bulky parcel for rest of day (this was pre p&l) but still she wasn't having it, so I ended up telling her to get her hearing checked, and whilst she was out getting that done she could pop round via the delivery office and pick up her SD item as instructed on card.

So people like that get compensated? Jesus!

[steve1873]

^^ Just to add on the above point, how many times have you chapped/ rung... no answer, stand and write out a card, pop it through and the instant it goes through, the door opens with an exclamation of "sorry pal, didn't hear you there". What you didn't hear me ring/ knock, but you heard a piece of paper drop through your letterbox and land on the floor???

[monkeymutha]

I'll be honest I don't like delivering to neighbours, I feel uncomfortable doing so.

[steve1873]

I will try and deal with the points does it take longer to delivery to neighbour yes ! However you also have to address that say you returned 5 items to the callers offices as 739 then let's just 3 of those customers requested that the item is redelivered on a Saturday then you would be adding time to the Saturday as additional attendance calls when if you attempted a d2n then you may not have needed too. Of course a customer can choose to make the journey to collect the item sometimes que up to collect their parcel and be really thrilled at this great customer experience.

Now a 739 complaint and it has now taken over the top spot from Mis delivery is when a customer complains that they have been left a 739 card when they say they were in ! Now the complaints come under checks from the regulator and Royal Mail have to investigate it then pay off the customer.

Now in terms of TBT the union does listen to the members , we have just had an agreement endorsed by the membership which sets out how the union will move issues forward. We have regular meetings with reps , members and listen as well as speak.

But and there is a but a member who knows his office does not necessary see what is happening in the other 1600 other delivery offices , what is happening in the other parts of the industry , what of comm are doing , what Amazon is doing , what TNT is doing and having an impact and what Royal Mail are facing and what the CWU are having to address.

Now let's be clear here TBT on this site alone there are difference of opinions on Saturdays , delivery spans , productivity , start times and an hundred and one other things listening is one thing but which view point holds sway the one who wants no change and any thing which is either more work or different work as a sell out or the view which says that any company which has lost 30% of Amazon parcels and 14% of letter traffic to TNT in less than a year needs to react and try and listen to what Amazon wants to regain that work.

Of comm is not listening and claim that until Royal Mail address effierency they will not act. Now we can all continue to disregard that but the union cannot especially as Royal Mail have to submit a report to of comm within 2 weeks.

Look maybe I should leave the site cause it's clearly too much for some to have a grown up debate and instead they either attack London , attack the CWU or attack me personally.

Over and out and I will leave you all believe that everything is ok and the only problem is that we are being asked to do more ! And the answer to our problem is too work our time when revenue and traffic in some of the areas have fallen through the floor.

Also, can I just take issue with this... 3 out of 5 want item redelivered - now I do not know when you last performed a delivery duty dingo, and I appreciate that the figure will vary up and down country - but I get 1 or 2 redelivery items per week at absolute maximum. Out of anywhere between 50-100 returned items.

Those figures might paint a slightly different picture on your scenario!

[lollollol]

Just a couple of points on this subject which have come to mind while mulling it over on delivery...

Firstly, I think the business have overestimated the willingness of neighbours to take in parcels for neighbours... from my experience some do it rather begrudgingly particularly if it is a regular occurrence...

Secondly, I was covering a round today I was unfamiliar with and noticed it was a high rental area where a number of the residents work in the local meat processing industry which employs staff either on a shift system or permanent nights... doubt very much if these individuals would appreciate being awoken to receive a parcel for next door...

This agreement is ill-conceived and while benefiting some customers the impact will be minimal... the impact on delivery staff will depend on a common-sense approach from local management...

[Cut Off King]

Mmmm, I think that Dingo's feeling the heat in the London area, RM are losing inner city trade to the competition and thats putting preasure on the London CWU to make savings to compensate for the loss of work in those office

However, the vast majority of offices outside the London area have had to put up with these presures for a number of years now
Most of our offices have had to work revisions at a 90% to 110% efficency rating, and we have NO TIME SPARE to deliver to other houses.

In contrast there are some offices in London that have had revisions set as low as 66%, and with the loss of work form the competition they must be finding it difficult to justify the number of duties, and the local CWU must be willing to agree to almost anything in order to maintain their current work load.

So DTN may be achievable in some area's, the extra time required is not possible in most offices throughout the UK.

You have got to respect Dingo & London offices, at least they have held out against RM's race to the bottom for the longest time, most other areas have caved in to RM's demand to work at a min. of 100%

[dvbuk55]

I wouldn't bother arguing with dingo he's a Royal Mail man through and through, there's is always a catalogue of reasons why following the diktats of RM is good for the member - regardless. They are paid by the members for the benefit of the members or so you would think. The CWU are a waste of space in everyday matters, they are so far removed from the reality of delivery offices it's unbelievable. As dingo says they talk to......whoever and that is all they do. They ought to get off their arses and try pushing or pulling a trolley whichever it is for a couple of months straight and see if their opinion changes. The whole bunch of them disgust me from top to bottom, just gravy train riding, self serving tossers.

[chrisj]

So dingo is having a pop at people wanting to work their time. So what should be happening in delivery - should we not have contractual hours anymore or should be be made to flex compulsorily and for how long?

I am staggered that dingo has jumped straight to the assumption that posties do not want to deliver to neighbour just because they do not want to work their time or are just too resistant to measures that will save jobs. What about the MC staff?

The reality for some (I know he will argue that all offices are not the same) is that a lot of posties are actually already working for nothing and most that work beyond their time by say 15-20 minutes rarely ever claim OT or make a fuss about it.

We in delivery cannot continue to have things loaded on to our duties without providing adequate time to perform the tasks - the QOS will simply suffer and that will not help with the clientele and regulators.

* The irony about dingo's redelivery on saturday scenario is that - it rarely happens; because people actually work on saturdays and a lot of people will not want to stay at home waiting for a parcel to be delivered from 9am to 2.30pm or beyond. I have not had a redelivery for many months.

** Shall I go knocking on a neighbour's door to deliver an Amazon book or the Grazie nibbles or even a Netflix DVD because the addressee has a silly little letter box that will not accept anything other than A5 paper?

*** We posties have some many attendance calls these days - are we just talking about parcels or all attendance calls bar Special Delivery

dingo, its not personal but please do some proper research and go out with some posties - you should!

[Martin Walsh]

Chris I have been out on deliveries recently .

Now the facts have been published by Ipos Mori independent of Royal Mail. So shall ingnore these and accept your opinions as you delivery in one office out of 0ne thousand and 600.

Royal Mail deliver to 29 million addresses per day , areas are vastly different and if you believe that what is happening in your office is typical of the whole of UK exactly what do you base that on ?

Now again in opinion poll customers 94% of customers are satisfied with delivery to neighbour but less than a third have used the service. Within 18 months when the server allows for more use of the PDA and parcels are bar coded it anticipated that customers can request delivery to Neigbour prior to the postmen women leaving the office similar to DPD with their predict service.

Now cut of king I think your missing the point if London ,Manchester , Liverpool , Birmingham and Bristol lose Mail the whole of Royal Mail is at risk as it hinders the cross subsidy which provides the USO. Remember the above will have a delivery service even if the USO collapses due to the amount of Mail in those cities whereas smaller towns and rurals might only see one or two deliveries per week due to the extra cost.

So laughing about places losing work to TNT is short sighted and silly.

[dvbuk55]

10 minutes on delivery then an hour in a café chatting about it doesn't exactly cut it.

The trouble with dingo's views is that they are based on London and I'm sure everyone realises by now that London is not typical of delivery offices throughout Royal Mail and so the views are largely irrelevant to the majority of OPGs.