proposed deal loses delivery issues

[General Mannerheim]

Things do not often go to national level from the IR framework so your point is not valid with that regards.

And why is that then???....Could it be because divisional reps are too near their counterparts in Royal Mail and don't like to rock the boat and like to sweep things under the carpet or undermine the very local reps that this new agreement is expecting so much of?

I have had experience as ACAS and other parties as mediators and I disagree with you that they support the employee , in my experience Royal Mail are more opposed to ACAS cause they recommend that they do things differently.

I'm assuming that you did a typo and you meant to say employer and not employee.
But I have also dealt with ACAS and I can safely say that they do NOT have the employees best wishes at heart....why do you think that the current Government have now made it that you have to go through them before(Mandatory pre claims)..(and it ain't about saving money or time ) before your allowed to go an employment tribunal if not to make it harder for the `little`man` to get redress.

[Martin Walsh]

GM the framework ends at stage 3 currently. There is a phase 4 process but by the end of stage 3 most know that they want to ballot if they have not got an agreement by then. It is nothing to do with selling out local reps , in all stage 3s the area rep and local reps are present.

Well ACAS and I mean during negotiations on complex issues such as Mail Centre Closures and big disputes have been helpful in assisting getting a resolution. So in my experience I think your wrong and in the national negotiators your wrong.

Now your talking about ETs which is different. I am talking about mediation which is included in the agreement.

[fishtank]

I think only time will tell whether the mediation processes outlined in the new agreement actually helps to resolve issues to the mutual benefit of both parties or are simply used to stall the IR process and eliminate unofficial walkouts.
One question though...who is picking up the tab for this extra level of mediation?

[dvbuk55]

Somehow I remember ACAS being involved in the last agreement and what have they done to reconcile any of the problems that have turned up in the meantime. If we don't have the benefit of national strike action then what action is available? Chattering?

[Martin Walsh]

Duvbuk the role of acas is to advise how each side can find a way forward , it is not their to tall either Royal Mail or the CWU what to agree or what not to agree. The people we are using are very good and experienced mediators and have been used by most unions. They advise they do not have any power to tell either the CWU or Royal Mail what too agree or do.

In any case acas will be the external mediators.

Fish I believe that Royal Mail are fronting the cost unless your offering ?

[Danelectro]

Over the last 10 years The CWU have had more industrial action ballots locally then all the TUC unions combined and that is by using the current framework. However lets face it we now have a very competitive parcels market and now we have an end to end rival in TNT. Years ago we would go out on strike and come back and clear the backlog on overtime,. Now a days there are consequences from strike action like loss of income from contracts going elsewhere which may effect

This is so true and the more strikes we have the more work we will lose. Unfortunately those old days of striking have gone but I suppose this will disappoint a certain few who can't change with the times...

yeah the tyranny of the sensible people with their brave new world where working people have to give up their right to withdraw their labour alongside waiving their right to a pension until there 70.What next? state euthanasia for awkward people?

[dvbuk55]

Duvbuk the role of acas is to advise how each side can find a way forward , it is not their to tall either Royal Mail or the CWU what to agree or what not to agree. The people we are using are very good and experienced mediators and have been used by most unions. They advise they do not have any power to tell either the CWU or Royal Mail what too agree or do.

In any case acas will be the external mediators.

Fish I believe that Royal Mail are fronting the cost unless your offering ?

Reconcile was the wrong word I should have said mediate or advise effectively.

Royal Mail are fronting the cost...............well we all know he who pays the piper calls the tune.

[Martin Walsh]

No right has been taken away from allowing you too strike. People can dress it up as much as they want the fact is there is no restriction on strike action. However in the same way as individuals lose a part of their Xmas bonus or their pay if they go on strike the business will review the legal protections if we nationally go on strike. Most of the people on here think the legal protections are not worth the paper they are written on then clearly the members if the issue arrives will vote yes to strike action.

Now the second part I agree with you on . The TUC , The Labour Party , The Trade Union movement , the working class are going to the generation who gave up everything that our predecessors fought to secure unless people rise up. Education , the Heath Service , the Welfare state , pensions , sick pay will all be lost and we will see the rich get richer.

[Martin Walsh]

Dvbuk Royal Mail pay your wages it has hardly made you love and support the company.

[fishtank]

Royal Mail Group Ltd is one of the largest businesses in the United Kingdom. It acts, as all large entities, under the guidance of its Board, its Executive team, Operational teams at National, Regional and Local levels; and specialist and functional teams for specific areas and priorities.
To emphasise our joint commitment to creating industrial stability, it is proposed to modify these business structures to formally ensure that appropriate Union Representatives can become participating members in them.

On a different but related note dingo maybe you could explain how a very busy(as discussed yesterday) union representative becomes a participating member of the RM Board, its Executive team, and Operational teams at National, Regional and Local levels.

I wouldn't have thought they had the time to moonlight for Royal Mail.

[dvbuk55]

Dvbuk Royal Mail pay your wages it has hardly made you love and support the company.

That actually emphasises the point I make, Royal Mail pay me to carry out the work and in so doing produce the result they require - now do you get the point?

[chrisj]

And who decides whether we go on a national strike? It is certainly not going to be the militant ones who will also lose pay btw. Given that the deal/agreement is between the CWu and RM and we are represented by the PEC then there is no chance at all there will ever be an industrial action until these lot are ousted or there is a big big confrontation from RM. It just going to be local strike and as long as the PEC does not sanction anything nationally, it will be mediated out - for good or bad.

We have an aspect of the deal tied to not going on a National Strike - that is not the same thing as losing wages during a strike action. The issue of the bonus and strikes is not relevant - you lose a percentage of your bonus by being absent from work ergo being on strike is being absent.

The way things have turned out with this dispute, the chances of anyone genuinely voting for a Strike even if one is called by the 'collaborators ' is very low indeed. They cannot be trusted again. the whole thing is bent and very politically motivated.

[fishtank]

However in the same way as individuals lose a part of their Xmas bonus or their pay if they go on strike the business will review the legal protections if we nationally go on strike.

That's nothing near the same thing dingo.
The executive will never call a national strike while the protections are in place because unlike losing a few quid Royal Mail would make it very clear to the staff exactly what they would be putting on the line if they voted yes. If you think the propaganda avalanche was impressive this time you can imagine what it would be like if they have this stick to beat us with....something along the lines of Vote Yes and kiss your job goodbye.

Most of the people on here think the legal protections are not worth the paper they are written on then clearly the members if the issue arrives will vote yes to strike action.

The flaw in that statement is that HQ,the negotiators and obviously yourself clearly think the legal protections are the dog's bollocks and by definition you must also think that the members would be absolutely crazy to reject them therefore that must mean you think that the members would have to be insane to risk them all and....vote yes to strike action.

[Martin Walsh]

Chris there are two ways when a national industrial action ballot is agreed. 1 is a result of a decision made at annual conference by a vote of all Branches and 2. Is a result of a decision by the PEC and this is after a number of national briefings.

Chris do you really think any employee would sign into legal protections which will restrict the company in the next few years and not have a review if a union was taking strike action which meant they lost significant contracts and therefore revenue.

Fish you have to quote the whole section. The CWU are not looking at a place on the Board and this will be explained to you at your reps briefing. But why shouldn't the CWU have the opportunity to address the board on key business and union initiatives on request.

Now in terms of the other structures such as the business direction on automation , or strategy , parcels growth and a whole range of other issues.

All of these will not replace the IR framework.

The only way this agreement will work is if there is cultural change at all levels to ensure that staff are listen to in the workplace. Whether it will work is debatable as I have dealt with numerous issues over absorption , reductions in belated hourage by EA and unfair resoucing.

[dvbuk55]

The only way this agreement will work is if there is cultural change at all levels to ensure that staff are listen to in the workplace. Whether it will work is debatable as I have dealt with numerous issues over absorption , reductions in belated hourage by EA and unfair resoucing.

We've heard all this before dingo, the deal of the century was going to bring a new understanding, full CWU interaction, fair and equal workloads, 75/25% FT/PT split in the workforce.............well it hasn't happened and you really expect a cultural change? That may be easy for the likes of you and the CWU hierarchy who find it quite easy to "embed" in the company.........whatever that really means but when you are on the shop floor you're going to meet confrontation, unrealistic workloads, harassment and bullying. Nothing in this new agreement does anything to address these problems.