Royal Mail agreement presented to reps

[bandit1157]

I think that's about the size of it. They want a give and take agreement. RM gives and the CWU takes. I almost hope it is a "no" vote - it will be fascinating to see what happens next.

In the biblical sense I think you are right. Remind me not to pick up my soap in the shower when you're about.

Yes that 9.06% pay rise must really smart. Reading the précis of one of the briefings today I am struggling to see what RM are getting out of it.

Well if you're struggling to see what RM is getting out of it I'm afraid you must of banged your head. Try winding up one of your toys as it won't work on me.
Who writes your speeches, Joseph Goebbels. Good night

[Danelectro]

I am struggling to see what RM are getting out of it.

Got to be a bit more consistent Mr Fury-the other day you knew what Royal mail got out of the agreement and today you don't.

You also ignore that for some its not all about the money, personally id rather give them back 0.5% of each yearly rise and have fairer workloads and a change in the management culture which in my area is quite frankly amounts to lying and cheating to get the mail out the door.I want managers to work in a professional manner with the staff to solve resourcing and not for instance convince someone out of earshot of the H&S rep that they have to carry 10kg plus for 5 hours because its a busy day.

[bogstandard]

its another blank cheque agreement. just like the last 2.
its group this and strand that, changes will come but my union has not told me what changes.
It will get in.
i do not see it as a no strike deal.
i do however read it as a 1 months notice and the business can pull out of a bit, or a lot or all of the legal protections.

And WTF is all the can do culture b*ll*cks
any replies to the last bit much appreciated. can do FFS!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Brain Fury]

I am struggling to see what RM are getting out of it.

Got to be a bit more consistent Mr Fury-the other day you knew what Royal mail got out of the agreement and today you don't.

You also ignore that for some its not all about the money, personally id rather give them back 0.5% of each yearly rise and have fairer workloads and a change in the management culture which in my area is quite frankly amounts to lying and cheating to get the mail out the door.I want managers to work in a professional manner with the staff to solve resourcing and not for instance convince someone out of earshot of the H&S rep that they have to carry 10kg plus for 5 hours because its a busy day.

I thought I knew what RM was getting but having read the notes of the CWU brief I am not so sure.

I know it's not all about the money for some people. Isn't that the problem though? Everybody has their own idea of what the deal should be and what is most important. The CWU can only do one deal. I had a debate with somebody the other day about these delivery issues. Not that they don't need to be resolved but what did you expect to be in the deal given that serious negotiations didn't start until October / November? I don't see how a final solution on workload etc could be reached in such a short time. At the same time people wanted the pay and protections issues to be sorted out quickly. So how do you achieve both aims?

[Martin Walsh]

7. During the negotiations Royal Mail wanted the CWU to agree annualised hours for all delivery post persons. They wanted a commitment to continuous improvement on efficiency. They also wanted more flexibility so they could resource more to workload and not your actual duties within the office. They also wanted the CWU to agree that the PDAs could be used to record when every OPG finished and can detail what speeds their walking and can be imputed into geo route to establish resourcing and more flexibility. The CWU stopped any of this happening but be in no doubt that is still on Royal mails agenda.

I'm sorry but it's easy to say Royal Mail wanted this and that and the CWU stopped it happening but we only have your word for that and you only have the word of whoever told you so if we're going to have a grown up debate about something we have to steer clear of unverifiable might have beens.
The above may be true or it may not or Royal Mail might have just thrown it in there to scare the negotiators but it's neither here nor there because it doesn't appear on any proposed agreement.

Fish it is the truth. When you attend your briefing he will tell you. Why do you think the issue of annualised hours is in the work on the strands ? PDAs also covered. You really don't believe Royal Mail does not want to have informed resourcing meetings based on how long a delivery takes as the PDA software can now see how long each delivery has taken.

You might as some others want to believe that Royal Mail did not want further changes to delivery operations including annualised hours , more flexibility and more out door absorption but you and they would be very wrong.

[dvbuk55]

What did the CWU get and I mean the organisation formerly a union?

Well they negotiated a pay deal for the next 3 years, they have negotiated away any right to industrial action and therefore any negotiating bargaining chip, they have "embedded" themselves in the company, though how they feel that role will play out is anyone's guess, so in a nut sack what are they going to do for us for the foreseeable future?

[dvbuk55]

Fish it is the truth. When you attend your briefing he will tell you.

Right.............so that'll make it true then. Is there any truth in the large broom that RM wanted, possibly to hire the delivery staff out to the local councils for cleaning operations but the negotiators managed to scotch that plan or is that just rumour.

[Martin Walsh]

5. There is not a no strike deal. You can take strike action locally once the IR framework has been exhausted and it's has been to the external mediator. This is almost the same now as most offices in strikes go to a stage 4 at national level. In terms of Royal Mails ability to review the legal guarantees in the event of the CWU taking strike action is far from being a no strike deal. It's as almost that you are saying the legal guarantees are so good the CWU will never sanction strike action again. However remember it is annual conference who agree a national ballot of the PEC not an agreement.

Could you explain in nice simple terms what happens if during the pay negotiations in 2 year's time Royal Mail say we are getting nothing?

Local strikes?

Fish it is very simple and not just on pay. if this agreement is not working or we don't get the agreement we want on deliveries under the review then the union can ballot for strike action , if we then think the issue is serious enough then we can agree strike action if we do that then Royal Mail will have an opportunity to review the legal guarantees.

However if the issue is important enough then we will take strike action. As part of any settlement we would want the legal guarantees back.

Think about this what other union has got the legal guarantees have ?? None . These will limit the impacts of privatisation for a number of years. remember the first review is 5 years but there is no end date to the guarantees.
Do you really think any employer not least Royal Mail are going to sign in a legal contract which guarantees , no outsourcing , no break up of the company , no franchising , no zero hour contracts no two term contracts and not have a clause in there that allows them to review these commitments if we decided to take strike action against the company in which they lose millions of pounds in contracts ?? No company would as we could ballot yearly and Royal Mail would be able to do nothing to change the legal guarantees if they did not have in the legal contract their ability to review the guarantees in the event of strike action.

let's be clear if this agreement is not work then what is stopping us balloting ? Or are you saying that the legal guarantees are so good that the the union and it's members will never support another strike ?

If that is what your saying then you have a choice, there is no legal guarantees unless that clause is in there. So you either have no legal guarantees and we like the RMT have to fight the real impacts of privatisation as it happens ie when a delivery office is franchised , or when our work is outsourced , or when network is part of a joint venture or when employees are bought in on different contracts.

That is the real choice. No one on here should deceive anyone . What do you want real legal guarantees with the opportunity for Royal Mail to review if we take strike action or no legal guarantees and we fight when Royal Mail introduce franchising outsourcing etc ??

Most of the trade union movement have already indicated that what we have now is the benchmark for them and they wish they did it when they were privatised.

[Danelectro]

You might as some others want to believe that Royal Mail did not want further changes to delivery operations including annualised hours , more flexibility and more out door absorption but you and they would be very wrong.

The new delivery programme of works hasn't been devised yet and that means a fair days workload is an unkown? so its a leap of faith and we all know what happened the last time we were asked to do that.You must surely understand that trust of a mediation process where Royal mail has the upper hand is not welcome news to a lot of reps and members.

Its all well putting stuff in the agreement like ' delivery methods compliance' but to do that to the letter retrospectively in the revisions I know of is gonna cost money and its hard to believe that's gonna happen in an office where there is a biro budget and random banking of hours to save 20 mins overtime.

[Martin Walsh]

Yet again i read a post from dingo that rambles on about how great this deal is. There are a few things you need to take into account before you try and hoodwink OUR members we voted on four issues 1. Privatisation. The union missed the boat 2.pay union secured an extra 0.4 hardly ground breaking 3.competitors mail.. We can do nothing about it so why let the members vote on it in the first place 4. Cooperation... We Will deal with it sometime next year after we voted and lost our right to strike. As Dave ward NOT ME said nothing is agreed till its all agreed so out of the four points we voted on the union comes back rid of three and only one improved a 0.4 pay increase hardly ground breaking there is it.
The five year legaly binding agreement we give up the right to strike national, impossible to go past stage three in the new IR frame work. Wat happens after three year wen we negotiate our new pay deal and royal mail says no ???? We carnt strike can we. Also royal mail can come out the agreement at ANYTIME with exceptional circumstances while the union is stuck no matter Wat with this agreement. the agreement states 28 times efficiency and productivity this WILL lead into individual performance checks. just because we are now a private company does not mean we bend over backwards. You also mention that there are a small percentage of members not happy in DO yet you forget 94% of members voted on problems in delivery officer So after reading your rambling also the agreement still can not see how this is ground breaking.

Wrong the membership was ballot for strike action on the question are you prepared to take strike action in defence of your pay , pensions and the impact from privatisation.

The pay offer is good and you know it.

The legal protections are so good you are saying it will amount to a no strike deal as no one will activate a national strike in fear of sling the legal protections. Complete rubbish. The people who lead the fight for national strikes are not going to be stopped if the issue is right by that clause.

This union has never agreed individual performance standards other than a one Minute test. Let's be clear why is some offices have got good working revisions with good attendance patterns and staff who have never bullied and some offices which have real problems ??? Is it because some offices make Royal Mail stick to the terms of the national agreement and don't agree anything if management try and break it and some agree anything Royal Mail propose to them. If it is the case then no national agreement will help. We as a union have to somehow make those offices stronger.

[TrueBlueTerrier]

Well that clears it up this is a good agreement for the Union as an organisation, its a pity that most of the concerns of delivery members are being dealt with later. We can only hope that the solutions for those concerns are as groundbreaking as the Union belive this agreement is. My one major concern is that the agreements of 2007 and 2010 also delayed the issues of concern for delivery members, and even the most sycophantic members can see what happened in those cases.

The one thing the CWU need to do is to explain what benefits, beyond pay, we the members as individuals are getting if we vote Yes. Going on about the legal guarantees and the CWU being embedded within Royal Mail is not engaging members, in fact it runs the risk of alienating them.

I still have not made a decision yet, but I have to be honest, what I am hearing is not helping me make that decision.

[dvbuk55]

I still have not made a decision yet, but I have to be honest, what I am hearing is not helping me make that decision.

How can you possibly be wavering TBT, you have the assurances of the man who coined that infamous phrase DEAL OF THE CENTURY for that wonderful, dare I say, ground shaking BT 2010 - have no fear you are in safe hands pssst trust me I'm in the inner circle.

[janitor]

Ok so you have the best legal guarantees of any privatised industry, if RM fail to keep there part of the agreement the union can ballot for strike action, if you do this RM can walk away from the agreement, so basically you then have nothing, and you call this ground breaking, you already have 2 issues on the back burner, pensions and delivery issues to deal with, this agreement could be null and void before the inks dry. If RM decide to carry on business as usual and you manage to get people to vote for industrial action, which I doubt after this fiasco, you go back to RM and tell them your members have voted to let them walk away. As I said in another thread CWU have come up with bad agreements in the past but this eclipses them all.

[Martin Walsh]

Ok so you have the best legal guarantees of any privatised industry, if RM fail to keep there part of the agreement the union can ballot for strike action, if you do this RM can walk away from the agreement, so basically you then have nothing, and you call this ground breaking, you already have 2 issues on the back burner, pensions and delivery issues to deal with, this agreement could be null and void before the inks dry. If RM decide to carry on business as usual and you manage to get people to vote for industrial action, which I doubt after this fiasco, you go back to RM and tell them your members have voted to let them walk away. As I said in another thread CWU have come up with bad agreements in the past but this eclipses them all.

Your forgetting the big difference if Royal Mail do not keep to their part of the agreement they will be breaking a legal contract with the CWU. Most on here have moaned that Royal Mail have broken previous agreements and the union is powerless to make them abide by them. Well now if they break it they are in breach of a legal contract and the CWU can get an injunction which makes them abide by the terms of the legal contract and if they do not they are in breach of the law and have to face the consequences.

This is hugely different. I know most want to gloss over this but it is something you cannot miss.

[fishtank]

let's be clear if this agreement is not work then what is stopping us balloting ?

The fact that no member in their right mind is going to vote for strike action if it opens the door to franchising,zero hour contracts or a two tier workforce and therefore no union is going to gamble against those kind of odds and what that ultimately means is that as long as those basic protections remain in place it really doesn't matter what Royal Mail do as far as deliveries and pay are concerned the union has little choice but to toe the line.

What we have is a legally binding agreement that's not really very binding on the employer at all.
Let's get down to the detail of the legally binding parts.What sanctions will Royal Mail actually face if it breaches the agreement just a little here and a little there?, It would be playing right into their hands to call a strike and make life easy for them so do we take the legal route..yes?
Say the union runs to court, somehow manages to find a friendly face in the judicial system and obtains an injunction,what then if Royal Mail just continues to flout the agreement?

Is the union really going to sue Royal Mail for breach of contract?, do you know exactly what that involves and how difficult that is to win and even if by some miracle the union did win what would they seek after a long and expensive court battle...punitive damages against or own employer?
That works as a job creation scheme.

Some have been seduced by the mention of lawyers without the slightest bit of knowledge as to how the legal system works. Royal Mail's legal team must be pissing themselves at our niavety....legally binding my arse.