Did you stop for 2 minutes?

[TeeferTiger]

Incidentally, his name was William Nuttall... son of William Nuttall... his sons were William Nuttall... no imagination my family!

[DB1100]

"Freedom of Speech" isn't absolute by any means, and I'm more than happy to chat about current and past military campaigns. However, unless someone is autistic (or something similar) where they can't pick up on people's body language etc, or appreciate that it isn't an appropriate time, then during the two minutes silence really isn't the time or place for that argument.

It's bizarre that as an ex-serviceman you'd even think that the concept of FoS would "allow" someone to act like that, unless you just want to argue the toss too? No, surely not....

Whilst I would not interrupt the 2 minutes silence because for me it brings to mind specific events and friends, I believe that people have the right to air their political views. Even if I disagree with their position and method of protest, as long as its legal and non-violent, I don't believe I have the right to limit their Freedom of Speech.

Do I think they are being crass yes I do, but no more crass than calling someone an arse in a thread about remembrance. Neither is that bad, but both are, in my own view, inappropriate. However as neither are illegal then Yes I do believe both are allowed under MY definition of Freedom of Speech.

I conversely think its bizarre that as an ex-serviceman you would expect me to impose my own values on someone else. Ok I would prefer it if everyone observed the 2 minutes silence, but if someone doesn't, then why should I care, my own personal respect and remembrance for the fallen remains unaffected by the actions of others, and that's what really counts.

Its about a lot more than freedom of speech,and if people cannot be quiet and still for 2 minutes to say thank you and we remember what you did its a bad thing,I think the people who burnt poppies did so as a deliberate act of provocation and should have been jailed for a long time,when I hear the last post played my heart swells with pride I say wear a poppy with pride.

[Tman]

Do I think they are being crass yes I do, but no more crass than calling someone an arse in a thread about remembrance.

"No more crass"? So threads about remembrance carry a different set of moral guidelines, then?
You really do have a strange set of values if you truly believe that.

I would prefer it if everyone observed the 2 minutes silence, but if someone doesn't, then why should I care,

Indeed, why should you care? After all, the mundane act of calling someone an arse on a 'Net site is just as crass,apparently...

[NWpostie]

At my work place we had a 2 minutes silence, except that the boss in question cut it down to 1 minutes, "right lads back to work" I was fuming.

[Lounge Lizard]

Too right. All machines turned off for the two minutes.
{Shame some arse always has to try to make a quasi-political point re supporting current wars and campaigns, though }

Calling someone, presumably me, an 'arse' is usually an alternate to being able or willing to engage in meaningful debate.
That the 'Not in my name' march just before the Iraq invasion was probably the biggest demonstration seen in Britain suggests that the British public are NOT content with our recent military forays and our government should have known from history, America in VietNam and Russia in Afghanistan for example, that losses would be high and there was little chance of long term success.
And what so conveniently tends to be forgotten is that Osama Bin Laden was supported by the west when he fought the Russians in the 1970s, Saddam Hussain was our ally then and since and Colonel Gadaffi was a new friend of Britain as recently as 2002 - they've not changed but the west's allegencies hypocritically have.
Supporting the indiginous population against opressive regimes has been suggested as a reason for our actions but if so there are surely higher priorities in terms of human rights issues, not least Saudi Arabia, but no, we won't say a word against them as they sell us a lot of oil and buy a lot of our arms.
Nobody seriously suggests that there was any threat of Britain being invaded by Iraqi, Afghani or Libyan forces yet there is no doubt that our actions in arab countries caused not only the 7th July London bombings, with many civilian deaths and injuries, but also the recent growth of 'Muslims Against Crusades' and 'Hell For Heroes' groups, many of the actions of which I find offensive, as do the great majority of the population such that they've been banned giving them further positive publicity in areas where British troops are still based.
I stopped for two minutes remembering those I knew who fought for freedom and justice in the First or Second World War but, while not criticising our current troops, am not alone in not considering recent actions to be justified in the way that preventing an invasion by Hitler was.

[Tman]

All of which may well be perfectly true, however "you" would still be an arse if you attempted to say all that during the two minutes silence.
It's not what is or was being said, it's the timing.

[Lounge Lizard]

All of which may well be perfectly true, however "you" would still be an arse if you attempted to say all that during the two minutes silence.
It's not what is or was being said, it's the timing.

All of which I'm sure is true and that's why I believe it every minute of the year.
Having stated that "I stopped for two minutes" I've no idea how you can imply that I might have spoken that, or anything else, at the eleventh hour on the eleventh day.

[DB1100]

Too right. All machines turned off for the two minutes.
{Shame some arse always has to try to make a quasi-political point re supporting current wars and campaigns, though }

Calling someone, presumably me, an 'arse' is usually an alternate to being able or willing to engage in meaningful debate.
That the 'Not in my name' march just before the Iraq invasion was probably the biggest demonstration seen in Britain suggests that the British public are NOT content with our recent military forays and our government should have known from history, America in VietNam and Russia in Afghanistan for example, that losses would be high and there was little chance of long term success.
And what so conveniently tends to be forgotten is that Osama Bin Laden was supported by the west when he fought the Russians in the 1970s, Saddam Hussain was our ally then and since and Colonel Gadaffi was a new friend of Britain as recently as 2002 - they've not changed but the west's allegencies hypocritically have.
Supporting the indiginous population against opressive regimes has been suggested as a reason for our actions but if so there are surely higher priorities in terms of human rights issues, not least Saudi Arabia, but no, we won't say a word against them as they sell us a lot of oil and buy a lot of our arms.
Nobody seriously suggests that there was any threat of Britain being invaded by Iraqi, Afghani or Libyan forces yet there is no doubt that our actions in arab countries caused not only the 7th July London bombings, with many civilian deaths and injuries, but also the recent growth of 'Muslims Against Crusades' and 'Hell For Heroes' groups, many of the actions of which I find offensive, as do the great majority of the population such that they've been banned giving them further positive publicity in areas where British troops are still based.
I stopped for two minutes remembering those I knew who fought for freedom and justice in the First or Second World War but, while not criticising our current troops, am not alone in not considering recent actions to be justified in the way that preventing an invasion by Hitler was.

No sane person wants war,but you are forgetting it's not about us or what we want its about what other people have done for the Country right or wrong and showing we care to the families that have had their lives shattered by a knock on the door and the news that there loved one will never walk through the front door again,its about showing the 90 year old man that his best mates did not die for an ungrateful nation,put yourself in the place of a Dad of a young soldier who has just had the news that his son isn't coming home,wear a poppy for him show that you care

[Lounge Lizard]

Too right. All machines turned off for the two minutes.
{Shame some arse always has to try to make a quasi-political point re supporting current wars and campaigns, though }

Calling someone, presumably me, an 'arse' is usually an alternate to being able or willing to engage in meaningful debate.
That the 'Not in my name' march just before the Iraq invasion was probably the biggest demonstration seen in Britain suggests that the British public are NOT content with our recent military forays and our government should have known from history, America in VietNam and Russia in Afghanistan for example, that losses would be high and there was little chance of long term success.
And what so conveniently tends to be forgotten is that Osama Bin Laden was supported by the west when he fought the Russians in the 1970s, Saddam Hussain was our ally then and since and Colonel Gadaffi was a new friend of Britain as recently as 2002 - they've not changed but the west's allegencies hypocritically have.
Supporting the indiginous population against opressive regimes has been suggested as a reason for our actions but if so there are surely higher priorities in terms of human rights issues, not least Saudi Arabia, but no, we won't say a word against them as they sell us a lot of oil and buy a lot of our arms.
Nobody seriously suggests that there was any threat of Britain being invaded by Iraqi, Afghani or Libyan forces yet there is no doubt that our actions in arab countries caused not only the 7th July London bombings, with many civilian deaths and injuries, but also the recent growth of 'Muslims Against Crusades' and 'Hell For Heroes' groups, many of the actions of which I find offensive, as do the great majority of the population such that they've been banned giving them further positive publicity in areas where British troops are still based.
I stopped for two minutes remembering those I knew who fought for freedom and justice in the First or Second World War but, while not criticising our current troops, am not alone in not considering recent actions to be justified in the way that preventing an invasion by Hitler was.

No sane person wants war,but you are forgetting it's not about us or what we want its about what other people have done for the Country right or wrong and showing we care to the families that have had their lives shattered by a knock on the door and the news that there loved one will never walk through the front door again,its about showing the 90 year old man that his best mates did not die for an ungrateful nation,put yourself in the place of a Dad of a young soldier who has just had the news that his son isn't coming home,wear a poppy for him show that you care

Showing the 90 year old man that his best mates did not die for an ungrateful nation is why I always bought a poppy when the British Legion was all about First and Second War veterans. I won't though just accept unquestioningly what other people 'have done for the Country right or wrong', as if they're in the wrong, 'just obeying orders' yet again, my money or time will instead be for one of the thousands of other charities deserving of our hard earned money.

[DB1100]

Lounge Lizard,they have done no wrong in my eyes,what I meant by that is the hundreds of armchair generals that judge from the comfort of home,look how they condemned Bomber Harris,also they say that the actions of the Dambusters was in vain,now they condemn the Army for Iraq and Afghanistan,blame the politicians who send them there not the Soldiers,Sailors and Airmen that pay the price.Tony Blair should be up for war crimes for what he has done.

[Lounge Lizard]

Lounge Lizard,they have done no wrong in my eyes,what I meant by that is the hundreds of armchair generals that judge from the comfort of home,look how they condemned Bomber Harris,also they say that the actions of the Dambusters was in vain,now they condemn the Army for Iraq and Afghanistan,blame the politicians who send them there not the Soldiers,Sailors and Airmen that pay the price.Tony Blair should be up for war crimes for what he has done.

DB, it's you that brought up the issue of "right or wrong" and I think we're both agreed that recent British military adventures are wrong.
I have not though criticised the soldiers, did not 'condemn the Army' and agree with you wholeheartedly about Tony Blair on this issue.
It doesn't stop there though and as voters in a democracy we have individual responsibility and, with support for our troops increasingly being used to imply backing for their actions abroad, I choose not to buy a poppy anymore.
Likewise esteemed newsreader Jon Snow has recently criticised ‘poppy fascism’ pointing out that soldiers had died so that people had the freedom to choose when and where not to wear the symbol adding "Compelling people to wear poppies because YOU think they OUGHT to is precisely the poppy fascism, or intolerance, that I have complained of in the past."
Some years old now but I have always agreed with the words and singing of Buffy Sainte-Marie on this -
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VGWsGyNsw00" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[DB1100]

I think the term Poppy facism is taking things a bit far,Jon Snow is only a newsreader but he is entitled to his opinion,likewise you and I have different opinions I have lost friends and have been a Soldier so I am biased,and have no wish to argue.But I am not a Poppy fascist.

[Tman]

"Taking it a bit far" is an understatement. "Poppy fascism" was termed to describe how those in the public eye are "expected" to now wear a poppy, and allegedly the BBC have a stock of poppies to pin on every guest's chest when they appear in the weeks leading up to Remembrance Sunday.
Don't think it really applies to the local postie though..
Wear one...don't wear one..WGAF, but let's hope it doesn't become the new buzzword, with doughbaits boring everyone stiff with how "they used to wear one but now they don't and it's poppy fascism and I stand up for the right not to wear one blah Iraq blah Tony Blair blah" and so spoil a solemn occasion such as this with pseudo-political "me-me-me" comment..

[Lounge Lizard]

"Taking it a bit far" is an understatement. "Poppy fascism" was termed to describe how those in the public eye are "expected" to now wear a poppy, and allegedly the BBC have a stock of poppies to pin on every guest's chest when they appear in the weeks leading up to Remembrance Sunday.
Don't think it really applies to the local postie though..
Wear one...don't wear one..WGAF, but let's hope it doesn't become the new buzzword, with doughbaits boring everyone stiff with how "they used to wear one but now they don't and it's poppy fascism and I stand up for the right not to wear one blah Iraq blah Tony Blair blah" and so spoil a solemn occasion such as this with pseudo-political "me-me-me" comment..

No, it doesn't apply to the local postie, but the BBC having a stock of poppies, presumably paid for out of the license fee, to pin on every guest's chest when they appear in the weeks leading up to Remembrance Sunday and the suggestion that poppies are embroidered on the shirts of every member of a national football team is a long way from how the Haig Fund started ninety years ago.
I fail to see how some people choosing not to buy a poppy could possibly "spoil a solemn occasion" and I can't find any "pseudo-political "me-me-me" comment on here.
DB rightly states that "no sane person wants war" and I can't help thinking that the government might think twice before their illadvised and illfated military adventures if they themselves, rather than the public's £150 million a year charitable donations, funded the costly task of looking after the wounded.

[Tman]

I fail to see how some people choosing not to buy a poppy could possibly "spoil a solemn occasion"

Is this obtusity natural or assumed? What would spoil the solemn occasion is people insisting on giving thier political views at inappropriate moments,such as during the two minutes silence, which is the gist of this thread.

and I can't find any "pseudo-political "me-me-me" comment on here.

Could be there's a whole wide world outside of RMC though, and you might find it there...