The lapsing agreement

[yellowbelly]

Anybody got written explanation about taking lapsing out?
Can it be left in the frame to be done on your return to the office?
We're being told we have to take it.

Although still a newbie, don't know the 'legal' answer to this but in my limited experience I've learnt that if you
take the lapsing out with you, you've inadvertently taken some degree of responsibility
for ensuring that the lapsing mail is delivered.

If you then find you can't deliver within your time you've then got to contact a manager
to let them know and endure the waffle/pressure/harrassment they give you over the phone.

Some posties will deliver lapsing first to 'get it out of the way' but then they've put
pressure on themselves to get their own round delivered within their remaining
duty time.

Leaving lapsing and coming back for it is the ideal solution because you've not
yet taken full responsibility for delivering it and can contact a manager to
say 'I'm not going to be able to complete this lapsing in duty time - what should
I do'.
However, for many posties the length of journey (in time and distance) back
to the office to pick it up can be just as long as it would have been to take it
out in the first place and therefore it's sometimes just easier to take.

YB

[steve1873]

Anybody got written explanation about taking lapsing out?
Can it be left in the frame to be done on your return to the office?
We're being told we have to take it.

Although still a newbie, don't know the 'legal' answer to this but in my limited experience I've learnt that if you
take the lapsing out with you, you've inadvertently taken some degree of responsibility
for ensuring that the lapsing mail is delivered.

If you then find you can't deliver within your time you've then got to contact a manager
to let them know and endure the waffle/pressure/harrassment they give you over the phone.

Some posties will deliver lapsing first to 'get it out of the way' but then they've put
pressure on themselves to get their own round delivered within their remaining
duty time.

Leaving lapsing and coming back for it is the ideal solution because you've not
yet taken full responsibility for delivering it and can contact a manager to
say 'I'm not going to be able to complete this lapsing in duty time - what should
I do'.
However, for many posties the length of journey (in time and distance) back
to the office to pick it up can be just as long as it would have been to take it
out in the first place and therefore it's sometimes just easier to take.

YB

The best thing to do is no matter what a manager says or does, continue putting the ball back in to their court. Inform them that you MAY not have the capacity to do the lapsing, what with deliver to neighbour adding an undefined amount of time etc. However, if he/she wishes, you will take the lapsing, but are in no way committing to delivering it or your own delivery if it means working past your contracted hours of employment. Don't be drawn in to an argument or debate about it. They are the manager and if they give you a reasonable instruction, then you carry it out. But stand your ground regarding your finishing time and your uncertainty as to your capacity to either complete or do the lapsing. This conversation is best carried out in front of a witness, preferably a unit rep.

I guess that is more general advice as to the overrunning delivery procedure, however lapsing is now part and parcel (no pun intended) of our daily workload expectation, so the same discussion applies to lapsing also. Remember that lapsing is not intended to take you past your contracted hours of employment, but rather give you enough work to fill your hours.

Ultimately the decision to take it prior to commencing or leaving in office to be done after delivery is not yours to make. Do as instructed, but always, if in doubt, make it clear that you may not have the spare time to deliver it and ask what he/ she would like done in that event.

[NewPostieUK]

Can anyone tell me why lapsing is used to utilise outdoor working hours, and not indoor?

Full timers work two hours more than me (indoors, before I start). On an easy day surely they have spare time which could be used for lapsing?

Instead, all that happens is that they leave the office early (before I start) with the same amount of lapsing as me, and finish early.

[steve1873]

Can anyone tell me why lapsing is used to utilise outdoor working hours, and not indoor?

Full timers work two hours more than me (indoors, before I start). On an easy day surely they have spare time which could be used for lapsing?

Instead, all that happens is that they leave the office early (before I start) with the same amount of lapsing as me, and finish early.

Frustrating. All you can really do is work your own hours and hopefully you have a good rep, who you can highlight this discrepancy to, who will discuss the issue at the weekly resource meeting.

The bottom line is, your office along with every other will be targeted with annual savings and will have hours stripped as a result. So it is in your reps interest to sort that out and get a truer reflection of the resources required.

[TrueBlueTerrier]

Can anyone tell me why lapsing is used to utilise outdoor working hours, and not indoor?

Full timers work two hours more than me (indoors, before I start). On an easy day surely they have spare time which could be used for lapsing?

Instead, all that happens is that they leave the office early (before I start) with the same amount of lapsing as me, and finish early.

At my gaff, pre-cdvs still, on days we lapse (tues) we also indoor lapse by throwing PT and waysider walks in. Your office may be the same but if they have gone before you start then you won't see it.

[yellowbelly]

Anybody got written explanation about taking lapsing out?
Can it be left in the frame to be done on your return to the office?
We're being told we have to take it.

Although still a newbie, don't know the 'legal' answer to this but in my limited experience I've learnt that if you
take the lapsing out with you, you've inadvertently taken some degree of responsibility
for ensuring that the lapsing mail is delivered.

If you then find you can't deliver within your time you've then got to contact a manager
to let them know and endure the waffle/pressure/harrassment they give you over the phone.

Some posties will deliver lapsing first to 'get it out of the way' but then they've put
pressure on themselves to get their own round delivered within their remaining
duty time.

Leaving lapsing and coming back for it is the ideal solution because you've not
yet taken full responsibility for delivering it and can contact a manager to
say 'I'm not going to be able to complete this lapsing in duty time - what should
I do'.
However, for many posties the length of journey (in time and distance) back
to the office to pick it up can be just as long as it would have been to take it
out in the first place and therefore it's sometimes just easier to take.

YB

The best thing to do is no matter what a manager says or does, continue putting the ball back in to their court. Inform them that you MAY not have the capacity to do the lapsing, what with deliver to neighbour adding an undefined amount of time etc. However, if he/she wishes, you will take the lapsing, but are in no way committing to delivering it or your own delivery if it means working past your contracted hours of employment. Don't be drawn in to an argument or debate about it. They are the manager and if they give you a reasonable instruction, then you carry it out. But stand your ground regarding your finishing time and your uncertainty as to your capacity to either complete or do the lapsing. This conversation is best carried out in front of a witness, preferably a unit rep.

I guess that is more general advice as to the overrunning delivery procedure, however lapsing is now part and parcel (no pun intended) of our daily workload expectation, so the same discussion applies to lapsing also. Remember that lapsing is not intended to take you past your contracted hours of employment, but rather give you enough work to fill your hours.

Ultimately the decision to take it prior to commencing or leaving in office to be done after delivery is not yours to make. Do as instructed, but always, if in doubt, make it clear that you may not have the spare time to deliver it and ask what he/ she would like done in that event.

Steve,

appreciate your words of advice.

A further question from myself - as a P/T'er, for I guess almost 99 per cent of delivery rounds I get put on, I always work overtime to complete
the round I have been allocated. If I complete the 'normal' round before it's scheduled finish time but am already into overtime (due to P/T hours) am
I compelled to carry out lapsing that I have been give?

YB

[steve1873]

Anybody got written explanation about taking lapsing out?
Can it be left in the frame to be done on your return to the office?
We're being told we have to take it.

Although still a newbie, don't know the 'legal' answer to this but in my limited experience I've learnt that if you
take the lapsing out with you, you've inadvertently taken some degree of responsibility
for ensuring that the lapsing mail is delivered.

If you then find you can't deliver within your time you've then got to contact a manager
to let them know and endure the waffle/pressure/harrassment they give you over the phone.

Some posties will deliver lapsing first to 'get it out of the way' but then they've put
pressure on themselves to get their own round delivered within their remaining
duty time.

Leaving lapsing and coming back for it is the ideal solution because you've not
yet taken full responsibility for delivering it and can contact a manager to
say 'I'm not going to be able to complete this lapsing in duty time - what should
I do'.
However, for many posties the length of journey (in time and distance) back
to the office to pick it up can be just as long as it would have been to take it
out in the first place and therefore it's sometimes just easier to take.

YB

The best thing to do is no matter what a manager says or does, continue putting the ball back in to their court. Inform them that you MAY not have the capacity to do the lapsing, what with deliver to neighbour adding an undefined amount of time etc. However, if he/she wishes, you will take the lapsing, but are in no way committing to delivering it or your own delivery if it means working past your contracted hours of employment. Don't be drawn in to an argument or debate about it. They are the manager and if they give you a reasonable instruction, then you carry it out. But stand your ground regarding your finishing time and your uncertainty as to your capacity to either complete or do the lapsing. This conversation is best carried out in front of a witness, preferably a unit rep.

I guess that is more general advice as to the overrunning delivery procedure, however lapsing is now part and parcel (no pun intended) of our daily workload expectation, so the same discussion applies to lapsing also. Remember that lapsing is not intended to take you past your contracted hours of employment, but rather give you enough work to fill your hours.

Ultimately the decision to take it prior to commencing or leaving in office to be done after delivery is not yours to make. Do as instructed, but always, if in doubt, make it clear that you may not have the spare time to deliver it and ask what he/ she would like done in that event.

Steve,

appreciate your words of advice.

A further question from myself - as a P/T'er, for I guess almost 99 per cent of delivery rounds I get put on, I always work overtime to complete
the round I have been allocated. If I complete the 'normal' round before it's scheduled finish time but am already into overtime (due to P/T hours) am
I compelled to carry out lapsing that I have been give?

YB

In a word, No!

As I say, lapsing is to fill your hours in the event of slack. So, if traffic is below model day and you are likely to finish say 30 minutes before your time, you would have capacity to lapse. If you are going over to complete your own delivery, which i must add is again not mandatory, then you simply should refuse the lapsing! Do not come back prior to your scheduled finishing time however if you do refuse. Or if in the unlikely event that you refuse and are in middle of delivery and feel you may have misjudged it and have time withing your contracted hours to complete the lapsing, then pick up the phone, call your manager and explain that you feel you have misjudged things and will carry out lapsing upon your return. If they are reasonable they will understand and appreciate that you have made the effort to make contact to inform them. They may have already gotten the work covered, but by making contact you are at least making the effort to fill the shortfall in your workload, which you originally misjudged. It does happen, we are human beings afterall.

Also, as far as overtime to complete your delivery. All overtime is voluntary. If you know for a fact that you are going to go over by say an hour, but have something planned, somewhere to be or for whatever reason only wish to do half an hours overtime, then make it clear to a manager that you will go over, but not by enough to complete and what would they like done with the excess. The same applies if you wish to finish for your time. If they insist that you must work over, then ask to see the agreement that states this and consult with the unit rep if the manager does happen to produce a document stating this (he wont).

I am not a rep by the way, but I do have lots of experience of discussions with managers regarding workloads, lapsing etc.

[steve1873]

Anybody got written explanation about taking lapsing out?
Can it be left in the frame to be done on your return to the office?
We're being told we have to take it.

Although still a newbie, don't know the 'legal' answer to this but in my limited experience I've learnt that if you
take the lapsing out with you, you've inadvertently taken some degree of responsibility
for ensuring that the lapsing mail is delivered.

If you then find you can't deliver within your time you've then got to contact a manager
to let them know and endure the waffle/pressure/harrassment they give you over the phone.

Some posties will deliver lapsing first to 'get it out of the way' but then they've put
pressure on themselves to get their own round delivered within their remaining
duty time.

Leaving lapsing and coming back for it is the ideal solution because you've not
yet taken full responsibility for delivering it and can contact a manager to
say 'I'm not going to be able to complete this lapsing in duty time - what should
I do'.
However, for many posties the length of journey (in time and distance) back
to the office to pick it up can be just as long as it would have been to take it
out in the first place and therefore it's sometimes just easier to take.

YB

The best thing to do is no matter what a manager says or does, continue putting the ball back in to their court. Inform them that you MAY not have the capacity to do the lapsing, what with deliver to neighbour adding an undefined amount of time etc. However, if he/she wishes, you will take the lapsing, but are in no way committing to delivering it or your own delivery if it means working past your contracted hours of employment. Don't be drawn in to an argument or debate about it. They are the manager and if they give you a reasonable instruction, then you carry it out. But stand your ground regarding your finishing time and your uncertainty as to your capacity to either complete or do the lapsing. This conversation is best carried out in front of a witness, preferably a unit rep.

I guess that is more general advice as to the overrunning delivery procedure, however lapsing is now part and parcel (no pun intended) of our daily workload expectation, so the same discussion applies to lapsing also. Remember that lapsing is not intended to take you past your contracted hours of employment, but rather give you enough work to fill your hours.

Ultimately the decision to take it prior to commencing or leaving in office to be done after delivery is not yours to make. Do as instructed, but always, if in doubt, make it clear that you may not have the spare time to deliver it and ask what he/ she would like done in that event.

Steve,

appreciate your words of advice.

A further question from myself - as a P/T'er, for I guess almost 99 per cent of delivery rounds I get put on, I always work overtime to complete
the round I have been allocated. If I complete the 'normal' round before it's scheduled finish time but am already into overtime (due to P/T hours) am
I compelled to carry out lapsing that I have been give?

YB

Having read your question again mate, I am a little bit confused, if you could shed wee bit light on to this part (in bold), I may be able to offer slightly different advice. Firstly your contract doesn't change depending on which duty you are assigned to. It should only be your start time. I don't know what your contract is, but for this scenario I will assume 25 hours over 5 days (5 hours per day)

If the duty you are assigned to this week has a finishing time of 15:00, then working backwards from that, then your start time would be 10am. Now you may be asked to start before this, but that is overtime (again completely voluntary) and does not impact on your finishing time. For example if you get asked to come in at 9am, then you can't take it upon yourself to assume your finishing time is 14:00 as a result of this. That isn't how it works. Certainly in my office, or anywhere else to my knowledge (again I COULD be wrong here).

Then you are placed on a duty next week which has a finishing time of 14:18, again working back from that your start time would be 09:18.

Be careful with refusal to lapse by assuming you are into overtime, based on your daily contracted hours. For example, if you did happen to be asked to start an hour early on the first duty I mentioned with 3pm finish time - then the assumption that you finish at 2pm would be incorrect and for example if you were finished for 14:30, assuming you were already in to overtime, whilst correct, there are still 30 minutes actually remaining and the OT in the morning doesn't cancel this out. You simply claim from 9am until 10am as indoor overtime and then go about the rest of your day with the same scheduled finish time as would have been the case had you not did the hours overtime in morning.

Hope this clears that up a little.

[steve1873]

Also take in to account meal relief. On a 5 hour day as used in above example then you would be entitled to 30 mins paid meal relief. I will look for the sheet which lists the times for various shift lengths. At some point in the day, you will have to account for this 30 mins. Don't go working through your break as you will effectively be working for nothing. Breaks should be taken as close to the middle of the shift as possible. The first 20 mins of your break are statutory and cannot be scheduled for the beginning or end of your shift. The remainder is your contractual meal relief, so this can be taken at either start or end of shift.

In the scenario above, then assume you have you have your 20 mins statutory break at 12:30, then you can take the remainder (if you want) at start, meaning you would start at 10:10, or at the end, meaning you would finish at 14:50. Or alternatively you can obviously take the full allocation of 30 mins in a single session, but if in doing so you cannot take it at start or end of shift.

If any of that info is incorrect, then someone will correct me.

EDIT: Apologies if you do take your meal relief and feel that is a bit of preaching, but if you look at it based on the contract I outlined above, someone working through their meal relief would in effect be giving back 2.5 hours of free labour to Royal Mail per week. Over 47 weeks that is 117.5 hours. That works out at nearly £1300 (based on £11 p/h which is inclusive of delivery supplement). I add that this isn't aimed at you specifically, but for anyone reading this that maybe does work through your break - do you think that Royal Mail is a charity and is worth a donation of over a thousand pounds per year?

[yellowbelly]

If the duty you are assigned to this week has a finishing time of 15:00, then working backwards from that, then your start time would be 10am. Now you may be asked to start before this, but that is overtime (again completely voluntary) and does not impact on your finishing time. For example if you get asked to come in at 9am, then you can't take it upon yourself to assume your finishing time is 14:00 as a result of this. That isn't how it works. Certainly in my office, or anywhere else to my knowledge (again I COULD be wrong here).

Then you are placed on a duty next week which has a finishing time of 14:18, again working back from that your start time would be 09:18.

Be careful with refusal to lapse by assuming you are into overtime, based on your daily contracted hours. For example, if you did happen to be asked to start an hour early on the first duty I mentioned with 3pm finish time - then the assumption that you finish at 2pm would be incorrect and for example if you were finished for 14:30, assuming you were already in to overtime, whilst correct, there are still 30 minutes actually remaining and the OT in the morning doesn't cancel this out. You simply claim from 9am until 10am as indoor overtime and then go about the rest of your day with the same scheduled finish time as would have been the case had you not did the hours overtime in morning.

Hope this clears that up a little.

Steve, wow! this is the first time anyone has clearly explained this - I did make the (incorrect) assumption that you've referred to that
an earlier start time meant earlier finish time as long as you've completed your delivery and worked both the amount of hours
that are allocated to the delivery and your contracted hours, and I even think a lot of posties more experienced than myself work on this
assumption too (or know about it but ignore it as long as it's not noticed).

However if I turned up at the start duty time detailed I would be well behind for van share leaving times or for
the driver taking out a bag drop/big parcels as they are on longer contracted hours or O/T and they
have been prepping since the mail arrived.

Depending on the start time, it might be the case that someone maybe
should be prepping the round but we all know in the real world that this doesn't happen as people
are given other jobs or concerned about getting out with there own rounds and if there's no
manager around nothing is said or done about it........

Now you've explained this I'm going to make sure that I'm watertight regarding finishing times.....thanks

YB

[POSTMAN]

Lapsing should no affect QOS ie you have to cut off, either the lapsing part or your duty.
Completely ignored by all of course,including reps, but hey ho.

[Nessie1984]

Can anyone help please?
I've signed for a shift that will be lapsed over summer yet I walk in on a weekly basis and I'm being taken off my shift. There are three unsigned shifts that are also lapsing shifts yet I'm being taken off my shift to cover those. Surely this is not right? I've signed for that shift, it's October yet they threaten that they will lapse if when and how hey want. What about the other shifts?

[POSTMAN]

Can anyone help please?
I've signed for a shift that will be lapsed over summer yet I walk in on a weekly basis and I'm being taken off my shift. There are three unsigned shifts that are also lapsing shifts yet I'm being taken off my shift to cover those. Surely this is not right? I've signed for that shift, it's October yet they threaten that they will lapse if when and how hey want. What about the other shifts?

By shift you mean duty yes? You are as directed I'm afraid and I guess you're a reserve?
It's always open season for lapsing nowadays.Your rep needs to be on the ball with goings on!

[Navalron]

I'm no longer in the job but I really find it so hard to understand why the union these days has so much problems letting the members know wtf is going on locally and nationally. We always knew what other offices were up to and we never touched any black mail. It suits RM to have yous all fighting amongst each other. If the reps are not up to the job, effin bin them. Wtf happened to all the come who were mostly OK. I've been away several years but cannot believe the change in managers and the union. :c

[korky]

Can anyone help please?
I've signed for a shift that will be lapsed over summer yet I walk in on a weekly basis and I'm being taken off my shift. There are three unsigned shifts that are also lapsing shifts yet I'm being taken off my shift to cover those. Surely this is not right? I've signed for that shift, it's October yet they threaten that they will lapse if when and how hey want. What about the other shifts?

By shift you mean duty yes? You are as directed I'm afraid and I guess you're a reserve?
It's always open season for lapsing nowadays.Your rep needs to be on the ball with goings on!

it always makes me smile when lapsing is announced for the day due to traffic forecasts been down,
this despite the usual team who do early overtime every single day and managers doing opg work
simple fact is they're lapsing due to not enough contracted hours in the office, overtime shouldn't be relied upon to clear an office every single day of the week
and heaven forbid someone suggest to those who start 2 or 3 hrs early maybe have a lay in for a week to see if lapsing will cease