Is this a deal to protect FT jobs in London.

[dvbuk55]

The survey would determine what was introduced. No one including part timers will be forced to alter their hours as that is contained on page 10 of the agreement which states PART TIME EMPLOYEES WILL BE ENTITLED TO RETAIN THEIR EXISTING CONTRACTUAL HOURS IF THEY WISH.

The point I was making was that in places with a large percentage of full timers that it is possible to introduce part timers in a different way then delivery only. Imagine if a part timer on 20 hours could save hours on child care etc by working just a Friday and Saturday now that would be attractive to some people.

It is not about forcing people to do things they dont want its about surveying the existing staff and then trying to address their wishes which may be to increase the number of staff who do not want to work saturdays at all.

Well "Part time employees will be entitled to retain their existing contractual hours if they wish" - is not the same as saying they will retain their shift pattern is it?
There somehow seems to be a bias against part time members of staff in this agreement, our office has something in the order of 40% part timers, all delivery officers all who stand to lose money on the implementation of this agreement - now who thinks they are going to embrace accepting changes detrimental to their shift pattern as well?

Detrimental in your opinion Dvbuk. I have spoken to many PT members who would like to do their hours in 2days instead of 5. Gives them the chance of 5 clear days off and also the chance to do more OT if they want it. Like Dingo says the survey of the office willd determine the course the duties take...... It is just one option of many.

These part timers lovejoy are they also happy to take a pay cut? And really lets have a look at these diverse duty patterns and the Saturday matrix and the revision tools if they're ready yet. These 2 day part timers lovejoy - what would their day consist of as a matter of interest - any idea of the delivery span for example on say a ten hour day or a 12 and a half hour day in the case of 25 hours or a 15 hour day in the case of a 30 hour part timer?

You see you can glibly roll off how part timers would love a two day week but there are practicalities to consider, it looks good on paper....................

[lovejoy]

The survey would determine what was introduced. No one including part timers will be forced to alter their hours as that is contained on page 10 of the agreement which states PART TIME EMPLOYEES WILL BE ENTITLED TO RETAIN THEIR EXISTING CONTRACTUAL HOURS IF THEY WISH.

The point I was making was that in places with a large percentage of full timers that it is possible to introduce part timers in a different way then delivery only. Imagine if a part timer on 20 hours could save hours on child care etc by working just a Friday and Saturday now that would be attractive to some people.

It is not about forcing people to do things they dont want its about surveying the existing staff and then trying to address their wishes which may be to increase the number of staff who do not want to work saturdays at all.

Well "Part time employees will be entitled to retain their existing contractual hours if they wish" - is not the same as saying they will retain their shift pattern is it?
There somehow seems to be a bias against part time members of staff in this agreement, our office has something in the order of 40% part timers, all delivery officers all who stand to lose money on the implementation of this agreement - now who thinks they are going to embrace accepting changes detrimental to their shift pattern as well?

Detrimental in your opinion Dvbuk. I have spoken to many PT members who would like to do their hours in 2days instead of 5. Gives them the chance of 5 clear days off and also the chance to do more OT if they want it. Like Dingo says the survey of the office willd determine the course the duties take...... It is just one option of many.

These part timers lovejoy are they also happy to take a pay cut? And really lets have a look at these diverse duty patterns and the Saturday matrix and the revision tools if they're ready yet. These 2 day part timers lovejoy - what would their day consist of as a matter of interest - any idea of the delivery span for example on say a ten hour day or a 12 and a half hour day in the case of 25 hours or a 15 hour day in the case of a 30 hour part timer?

You see you can glibly roll off how part timers would love a two day week but there are practicalities to consider, it looks good on paper....................

The 2 day week was with reference to a 20hr contract (and you knew that), and they would do exactly the same as their FT colleagues would do M-TH and the same as colleagues across the UK have been doing for a long time now.

Yes the delivery span will be longer, but supported by mehtods it will be safe and achievable.

The delivery span will also depend on the amount of indoor work that the walk has.

The we don't want more than 3.5hrs debate makes me laugh. Before the dispute people across the UK were moaning that they were being forced to do 4 or 4hrs30 and beyond ..... now all of of sudden 3.5 is the max they can do again.

In my opinion bag off the shoulder 3.5 should be the max, but with cdvs, hcts etc taking weight off the shoulder than can be extended.

[jobies]

I work in a Glasgow office and we have sa on a Saturday.Will we be allowed to keep this ?? This would give our office a chance to give more staff a Saturday off surely ?

[dvbuk55]

The survey would determine what was introduced. No one including part timers will be forced to alter their hours as that is contained on page 10 of the agreement which states PART TIME EMPLOYEES WILL BE ENTITLED TO RETAIN THEIR EXISTING CONTRACTUAL HOURS IF THEY WISH.

The point I was making was that in places with a large percentage of full timers that it is possible to introduce part timers in a different way then delivery only. Imagine if a part timer on 20 hours could save hours on child care etc by working just a Friday and Saturday now that would be attractive to some people.

It is not about forcing people to do things they dont want its about surveying the existing staff and then trying to address their wishes which may be to increase the number of staff who do not want to work saturdays at all.

Well "Part time employees will be entitled to retain their existing contractual hours if they wish" - is not the same as saying they will retain their shift pattern is it?
There somehow seems to be a bias against part time members of staff in this agreement, our office has something in the order of 40% part timers, all delivery officers all who stand to lose money on the implementation of this agreement - now who thinks they are going to embrace accepting changes detrimental to their shift pattern as well?

Detrimental in your opinion Dvbuk. I have spoken to many PT members who would like to do their hours in 2days instead of 5. Gives them the chance of 5 clear days off and also the chance to do more OT if they want it. Like Dingo says the survey of the office willd determine the course the duties take...... It is just one option of many.

These part timers lovejoy are they also happy to take a pay cut? And really lets have a look at these diverse duty patterns and the Saturday matrix and the revision tools if they're ready yet. These 2 day part timers lovejoy - what would their day consist of as a matter of interest - any idea of the delivery span for example on say a ten hour day or a 12 and a half hour day in the case of 25 hours or a 15 hour day in the case of a 30 hour part timer?

You see you can glibly roll off how part timers would love a two day week but there are practicalities to consider, it looks good on paper....................

The 2 day week was with reference to a 20hr contract (and you knew that), and they would do exactly the same as their FT colleagues would do M-TH and the same as colleagues across the UK have been doing for a long time now.

Yes the delivery span will be longer, but supported by mehtods it will be safe and achievable.

The delivery span will also depend on the amount of indoor work that the walk has.

The we don't want more than 3.5hrs debate makes me laugh. Before the dispute people across the UK were moaning that they were being forced to do 4 or 4hrs30 and beyond ..... now all of of sudden 3.5 is the max they can do again.

In my opinion bag off the shoulder 3.5 should be the max, but with cdvs, hcts etc taking weight off the shoulder than can be extended.

Of course I understood that lovejoy my point was that you can put things down on paper that look perfectly plausible but translating that to reality is yet another matter - and if you aren't doing that.............then you can write what you like. How long would you say a delivery span should be on a 10 hour day for example?

No one has said the delivery span should not exceed 3.5 hours BUT there are considerations, whether you have CDV, HCT or cycle and there needs to be a look at how the revision tools WHICH WE HAVEN'T YET SEEN are going to impact on that - and really it isn't that long ago that I did deliveries and it isn't easy and I wouldn't want to be walking forever and a day with or without an HCT.

Now these part timers lovejoy - did you mention the loss of pay?

[spilie]

so now we are getting nearer the truth kick the p/t staff in the goolies with the pro rata d2d`s, then plan to have f/t staff do most of thier work indoor while shafting the p/t staff with 8hr deliveries, but only because they want it so much they do you know , but never mind as dingo and co have said if we dont like the revisions in our offices all we have to do is say no

[anna]

Can Dingo please say if he is 100% sure that 95% of jobs in London are fulltime because in one west London delivery office (best not to say which on here) not only are there 20% part time and all new recruits have been either part time permanent (not more than 28 hrs I think) or ftc (temp) full time (RM hasn't been recruiting any new full time permanents since 2007/8 as far as I can see - I check their website regularly). And in at least one big MC there are still very many part-timers who would like to become full time (for instance, 387are part time out of just over 1000 total which is more than one third). This just doesn't fit with the impression you and others have been giving about "London". Also especially since Xmas and while interim deal was supposed to be on, there were a lot of casuals being using on deliveries in above delivery office when interim agreement was supposed to be in place although they were terminated recently, and the load put on everyone else (which is too much). So it seems some (or at least one is) DOMs are making use of agency temps when and if they choose while still cutting permanent full time jobs.

[Martin Walsh]

Anna you make a very good point.

Out of the London postcodes , The W2-14 areas have the most part timers, North West 1 -11 have hardly any, N1 -N22 very few , E1-18 have about 10% part timers in dlivery , WC , W1 and EC1-4 hardly any. SW1-20 have only have small number and SE1-28 a very small percentage. I dont include mail centres into that figure. I think the reason why W2 -14 had such a large number was a DSM introdued a number of mobile reserves on 20 hour contracts.

At the moment West 2 -14 have a number of recuirtment issues and the new DSM and the area rep are meeting to resolve this issue. It is not correct that management cannot recuirt full time at the moment. They can however at the moment all recuritment is on a fix term basis. We have seen in the last couple of weeks managment in parts of London agreeing to recuirt full time fixed term contract staff based on the stoke national agreement.

The following figures are appoxmately 12 months old and include mail centre staff and were based on the previous Area Mangement structure but are worth looking at.

RM Network 5266 Full time 778 Part Time
International Opps 1205 FT 46 PT
Central & West London 3546 FT 618 PT
East Anglia 4505 FT 1308 PT
East and North London 2613 FT 235 PT
Essex & Romford 4320 FT 840 PT
Croydon & Gatwick 4178 FT 637 PT
Twickenham, Kngston and Guildford 3484 FT 382 PT
Kent 3885 FT 802 PT
Home Counties West 3120 FT 514 PT
Home counties North 4965 FT 865 PT
South London 3884 FT 369 PT
South & East Yorkshire 3066 FT 2755 PT
East Of Scotland 3376 FT 1369 PT
Manchester 3280 FT 1385 PT
Cumbria Lancashire 3935 FT 1706 PT
North Of Scotland 1594 FT 664 PT
Northern Ireland 2079 FT 1291 PT
North East Of England 3244 FT 2137 PT
West Of Scotland 3282 FT 2016 PT
Chester, Shopshire North and Mid Wales 2955 FT 990 PT
Mid Yorkshire 4441 FT 2236 PT
Devon & Cornwall 2709 FT 1369 PT
East Midlands 2476 FT 1229 PT
North West Midlands 2476 FT 1229 PT
South &West Wales 3455 FT 1118 PT
Central & South Midlands 3848 FT 1212 PT
Thames Valley & Gloucester 4543 FT 1085 PT
Hampshire & Dorset 3953 FT 1333 PT
West of England 2941 FT 1096 PT
Birmingham Hereford & Worcester 3404 FT 940 PT

There was at this period an additonal 1252 staff empoyed on a fixed terms basis full time an 2434 part time.

So in total 147866 staff

110113 Full time
37747 Part time

The split was 75 /25 but it does include network , international , mail centres and distribution staff in those figures.

[belle smith]

The point I was making was that in places with a large percentage of full timers that it is possible to introduce part timers in a different way then delivery only. Imagine if a part timer on 20 hours could save hours on child care etc by working just a Friday and Saturday now that would be attractive to some people.

I could see how it could work in the offices you describe, where new PT staff were applying for new jobs and fully aware they would be working every Friday and Saturday. Thats a bit diffrent from the situation in my office.....so my appoligies to Edward Hunter if his office is like this.

Well if Dispatches turn up in London again in a few years time and everyones incensed about the London offices with permanent long weekends, we can't say you didn't tell us.

[dvbuk55]

Yes thanks for those figures dingo - can we have the current figures please.

[Steviea34]

Anna you make a very good point.

Out of the London postcodes , The W2-14 areas have the most part timers, North West 1 -11 have hardly any, N1 -N22 very few , E1-18 have about 10% part timers in dlivery , WC , W1 and EC1-4 hardly any. SW1-20 have only have small number and SE1-28 a very small percentage. I dont include mail centres into that figure. I think the reason why W2 -14 had such a large number was a DSM introdued a number of mobile reserves on 20 hour contracts.

At the moment West 2 -14 have a number of recuirtment issues and the new DSM and the area rep are meeting to resolve this issue. It is not correct that management cannot recuirt full time at the moment. They can however at the moment all recuritment is on a fix term basis. We have seen in the last couple of weeks managment in parts of London agreeing to recuirt full time fixed term contract staff based on the stoke national agreement.

The following figures are appoxmately 12 months old and include mail centre staff and were based on the previous Area Mangement structure but are worth looking at.

RM Network 5266 Full time 778 Part Time
International Opps 1205 FT 46 PT
Central & West London 3546 FT 618 PT
East Anglia 4505 FT 1308 PT
East and North London 2613 FT 235 PT
Essex & Romford 4320 FT 840 PT
Croydon & Gatwick 4178 FT 637 PT
Twickenham, Kngston and Guildford 3484 FT 382 PT
Kent 3885 FT 802 PT
Home Counties West 3120 FT 514 PT
Home counties North 4965 FT 865 PT
South London 3884 FT 369 PT
South & East Yorkshire 3066 FT 2755 PT
East Of Scotland 3376 FT 1369 PT
Manchester 3280 FT 1385 PT
Cumbria Lancashire 3935 FT 1706 PT
North Of Scotland 1594 FT 664 PT
Northern Ireland 2079 FT 1291 PT
North East Of England 3244 FT 2137 PT
West Of Scotland 3282 FT 2016 PT
Chester, Shopshire North and Mid Wales 2955 FT 990 PT
Mid Yorkshire 4441 FT 2236 PT
Devon & Cornwall 2709 FT 1369 PT
East Midlands 2476 FT 1229 PT
North West Midlands 2476 FT 1229 PT
South &West Wales 3455 FT 1118 PT
Central & South Midlands 3848 FT 1212 PT
Thames Valley & Gloucester 4543 FT 1085 PT
Hampshire & Dorset 3953 FT 1333 PT
West of England 2941 FT 1096 PT
Birmingham Hereford & Worcester 3404 FT 940 PT

There was at this period an additonal 1252 staff empoyed on a fixed terms basis full time an 2434 part time.

So in total 147866 staff

110113 Full time
37747 Part time

The split was 75 /25 but it does include network , international , mail centres and distribution staff in those figures.

Asked recently about the split in S&E YORKS(nearly 50/50 at present) area rep says he doubts this will change significantly.
Asked him why is he trying to SELL this agreement on INCREASED F/T contracts - he just looked at me blankly

[REDLETTER]

Anna you make a very good point.

Out of the London postcodes , The W2-14 areas have the most part timers, North West 1 -11 have hardly any, N1 -N22 very few , E1-18 have about 10% part timers in dlivery , WC , W1 and EC1-4 hardly any. SW1-20 have only have small number and SE1-28 a very small percentage. I dont include mail centres into that figure. I think the reason why W2 -14 had such a large number was a DSM introdued a number of mobile reserves on 20 hour contracts.

At the moment West 2 -14 have a number of recuirtment issues and the new DSM and the area rep are meeting to resolve this issue. It is not correct that management cannot recuirt full time at the moment. They can however at the moment all recuritment is on a fix term basis. We have seen in the last couple of weeks managment in parts of London agreeing to recuirt full time fixed term contract staff based on the stoke national agreement.

The following figures are appoxmately 12 months old and include mail centre staff and were based on the previous Area Mangement structure but are worth looking at.

RM Network 5266 Full time 778 Part Time
International Opps 1205 FT 46 PT
Central & West London 3546 FT 618 PT
East Anglia 4505 FT 1308 PT
East and North London 2613 FT 235 PT
Essex & Romford 4320 FT 840 PT
Croydon & Gatwick 4178 FT 637 PT
Twickenham, Kngston and Guildford 3484 FT 382 PT
Kent 3885 FT 802 PT
Home Counties West 3120 FT 514 PT
Home counties North 4965 FT 865 PT
South London 3884 FT 369 PT
South & East Yorkshire 3066 FT 2755 PT
East Of Scotland 3376 FT 1369 PT
Manchester 3280 FT 1385 PT
Cumbria Lancashire 3935 FT 1706 PT
North Of Scotland 1594 FT 664 PT
Northern Ireland 2079 FT 1291 PT
North East Of England 3244 FT 2137 PT
West Of Scotland 3282 FT 2016 PT
Chester, Shopshire North and Mid Wales 2955 FT 990 PT
Mid Yorkshire 4441 FT 2236 PT
Devon & Cornwall 2709 FT 1369 PT
East Midlands 2476 FT 1229 PT
North West Midlands 2476 FT 1229 PT
South &West Wales 3455 FT 1118 PT
Central & South Midlands 3848 FT 1212 PT
Thames Valley & Gloucester 4543 FT 1085 PT
Hampshire & Dorset 3953 FT 1333 PT
West of England 2941 FT 1096 PT
Birmingham Hereford & Worcester 3404 FT 940 PT

There was at this period an additonal 1252 staff empoyed on a fixed terms basis full time an 2434 part time.

So in total 147866 staff

110113 Full time
37747 Part time

The split was 75 /25 but it does include network , international , mail centres and distribution staff in those figures.

Based on these figures my area is a 50/50 split, but ours is more like 25 FT 75 PT split.

And there is no way we are going to get any more Full Time staff. any current contract is 25 hours max and at the mo fixed term for a year!

[gb93]

Regarding your post about FT/PT splits throughout the different areas of the country dingo.

I have to say another one of your better ones in my opinion, i personally found it interesting and informative.

My only concern would be who supplied these figures and had they been checked as correct.

And of course as you yourself state we have moved on a year since these figures.

[POSTMAN]

dingo did say...

The following figures are appoxmately 12 months old

So obviously some have changed.

[dvbuk55]

dingo did say...

The following figures are appoxmately 12 months old

So obviously some have changed.

In part that was honest but you could trawl through any amount of data to get figures that support any theory.

[drb]

Apparently this figure 0f 75% full time and 25% part nationaly will be monitored over the 3 year period.Looking at those figures it may be we now on 75% full time and 21% part time