How can members make a fully informed decision

[dvbuk55]

This whole thread is bull. I got a copy of the agreement on the monday morning. i read the whole thing fished out about eight pages from a ninety odd page document and put them on my union board i then marked the bits on each page my members would need to read you know the important stuff,saturdays d2d pay etc after all that i still had members saying
can i slim it or dumb it down a bit. look if any member wants a copy it is easy enough to get hold of i am a unit rep and i think it would be a total waste of money to send every member across the country a copy

Well waste it might be but it is the members money after all cackhill. Their future that rests on it too.

[welshy808]

This whole thread is bull. I got a copy of the agreement on the monday morning. i read the whole thing fished out about eight pages from a ninety odd page document and put them on my union board i then marked the bits on each page my members would need to read you know the important stuff,saturdays d2d pay etc after all that i still had members saying
can i slim it or dumb it down a bit. look if any member wants a copy it is easy enough to get hold of i am a unit rep and i think it would be a total waste of money to send every member across the country a copy

What gives you the right to decide what 8 pages are relevant to every member in your office. They might be the most important as far as your concerned but others might have differing opinions. The only way to give everyone a fair chance at coming to their own personal opinion is to allow them to read the full document.
in the eight pages did you include
page 2 which reaffirms the 2007 Pay & Modernisation Agreement (Lapsing and Flexibility)
Did you include the MTFS Amended Terms
Did you include the Generic Operational Transformation (giving the new six day standardised work plan.)
did you include page 16 Productivity (bring everyone's performance up to the top 10%.)
did you include Pages 17 through 28 Delivery Framework Agreement (possibly the most important to your members)
did you include Pages 58 to 63 Reward (Then again this might be the most important to your members)
Pages 64, 65 Deploying the Agreement
Annex C (when your members are going to get their lump sums and shorter working week

a few more than eight pages but still might not cover every question that Members might have.
Cost should not be an issue as it is the members money they pay into the Union they deserve to get the 80 page agreement.
To deny them the chance is unacceptable.

[fishtank]

Cost should not be an issue as it is the members money they pay into the Union they deserve to get the 80 page agreement.
To deny them the chance is unacceptable.

Let's have all the cards on the table here shall we.
It has absolutely NOTHING to do with cost.
It has absolutely EVERYTHING to do with depriving members of the full unpalatable truth.
Show them the money and dress the other issues up in spin and cross your fingers that they wont ask too many difficult questions.
Watch the DVD and vote YES in blissfull ignorance of the full facts.

[Darren Bent]

It is annoying there is nothing on paper. I don't fancy printing all 80 pages or reading it on screen.

[peterloo]

This whole thread is bull. I got a copy of the agreement on the monday morning. i read the whole thing fished out about eight pages from a ninety odd page document and put them on my union board i then marked the bits on each page my members would need to read you know the important stuff,saturdays d2d pay etc after all that i still had members saying
can i slim it or dumb it down a bit. look if any member wants a copy it is easy enough to get hold of i am a unit rep and i think it would be a total waste of money to send every member across the country a copy

What gives you the right to decide what 8 pages are relevant to every member in your office. They might be the most important as far as your concerned but others might have differing opinions. The only way to give everyone a fair chance at coming to their own personal opinion is to allow them to read the full document.
in the eight pages did you include
page 2 which reaffirms the 2007 Pay & Modernisation Agreement (Lapsing and Flexibility)
Did you include the MTFS Amended Terms
Did you include the Generic Operational Transformation (giving the new six day standardised work plan.)
did you include page 16 Productivity (bring everyone's performance up to the top 10%.)
did you include Pages 17 through 28 Delivery Framework Agreement (possibly the most important to your members)
did you include Pages 58 to 63 Reward (Then again this might be the most important to your members)
Pages 64, 65 Deploying the Agreement
Annex C (when your members are going to get their lump sums and shorter working week

a few more than eight pages but still might not cover every question that Members might have.
Cost should not be an issue as it is the members money they pay into the Union they deserve to get the 80 page agreement.
To deny them the chance is unacceptable.

Holdup it was the day the document came out and I put out the relevant stuff to my members, but every one of my members could get a copy off me, or just read the copy I left in the canteen. In fact only three asked for it, so you do the maths.
Oh and we have a meeting next tuesday to discuss the agreement.
Cost is an issue in the real world I am afraid. Sending a copy to every member would be a complete waste of time and money. Reps will read it a small proportion of members and that is about it. Call it apathy call it whatever you want that
is just the way it is

[janitor]

Well if my local rep is correct, the version i've read bears no resemblance to the version he's read.

[k979aaa]

It is funny how our so called union will say this and that in our name yet be so meek as to any questions it really defies belief that anyone can make a fully informed decision on the basis of a shortened version of this agreement!. If ever we were to go on strike after a lawful ballot would the lack of a UNFAIR BALLOT raise its head in court?.

[peterloo]

It is funny how our so called union will say this and that in our name yet be so meek as to any questions it really defies belief that anyone can make a fully informed decision on the basis of a shortened version of this agreement!. If ever we were to go on strike after a lawful ballot would the lack of a UNFAIR BALLOT raise its head in court?.

Nope!

[welshy808]

This whole thread is bull. I got a copy of the agreement on the monday morning. i read the whole thing fished out about eight pages from a ninety odd page document and put them on my union board i then marked the bits on each page my members would need to read you know the important stuff,saturdays d2d pay etc after all that i still had members saying
can i slim it or dumb it down a bit. look if any member wants a copy it is easy enough to get hold of i am a unit rep and i think it would be a total waste of money to send every member across the country a copy

What gives you the right to decide what 8 pages are relevant to every member in your office. They might be the most important as far as your concerned but others might have differing opinions. The only way to give everyone a fair chance at coming to their own personal opinion is to allow them to read the full document.
in the eight pages did you include
page 2 which reaffirms the 2007 Pay & Modernisation Agreement (Lapsing and Flexibility)
Did you include the MTFS Amended Terms
Did you include the Generic Operational Transformation (giving the new six day standardised work plan.)
did you include page 16 Productivity (bring everyone's performance up to the top 10%.)
did you include Pages 17 through 28 Delivery Framework Agreement (possibly the most important to your members)
did you include Pages 58 to 63 Reward (Then again this might be the most important to your members)
Pages 64, 65 Deploying the Agreement
Annex C (when your members are going to get their lump sums and shorter working week

a few more than eight pages but still might not cover every question that Members might have.
Cost should not be an issue as it is the members money they pay into the Union they deserve to get the 80 page agreement.
To deny them the chance is unacceptable.

Holdup it was the day the document came out and I put out the relevant stuff to my members, but every one of my members could get a copy off me, or just read the copy I left in the canteen. In fact only three asked for it, so you do the maths.
Oh and we have a meeting next tuesday to discuss the agreement.
Cost is an issue in the real world I am afraid. Sending a copy to every member would be a complete waste of time and money. Reps will read it a small proportion of members and that is about it. Call it apathy call it whatever you want that
is just the way it is

EIGHT PAGES I put out the relevant stuff to my member

and when HQ send out information not telling your members that the £400 they receive on ratification they are due only 6 weeks later, did you point that out.
When they give the spin about the £1000 did you put out the information within the proposal that shows this was their money anyway.
I fully accept that you put out the 3pm last letter on a Saturday.
I fully accept that you put out the information about D2D.
But how can you claim that 18p for the full document to be printed on the cheapest A4 paper and 66p large letter cost for postage plus whatever envelope and manpower HQ would use to send the full agreement to every member is a waste of money is beyond me. Every member within the business is entitled to a full copy just out of fairness.
if they red it is up to them but to deny them the full agreement is verging on corruption, do you wnt our union to go down those lines.

[peterloo]

This whole thread is bull. I got a copy of the agreement on the monday morning. i read the whole thing fished out about eight pages from a ninety odd page document and put them on my union board i then marked the bits on each page my members would need to read you know the important stuff,saturdays d2d pay etc after all that i still had members saying
can i slim it or dumb it down a bit. look if any member wants a copy it is easy enough to get hold of i am a unit rep and i think it would be a total waste of money to send every member across the country a copy

What gives you the right to decide what 8 pages are relevant to every member in your office. They might be the most important as far as your concerned but others might have differing opinions. The only way to give everyone a fair chance at coming to their own personal opinion is to allow them to read the full document.
in the eight pages did you include
page 2 which reaffirms the 2007 Pay & Modernisation Agreement (Lapsing and Flexibility)
Did you include the MTFS Amended Terms
Did you include the Generic Operational Transformation (giving the new six day standardised work plan.)
did you include page 16 Productivity (bring everyone's performance up to the top 10%.)
did you include Pages 17 through 28 Delivery Framework Agreement (possibly the most important to your members)
did you include Pages 58 to 63 Reward (Then again this might be the most important to your members)
Pages 64, 65 Deploying the Agreement
Annex C (when your members are going to get their lump sums and shorter working week

a few more than eight pages but still might not cover every question that Members might have.
Cost should not be an issue as it is the members money they pay into the Union they deserve to get the 80 page agreement.
To deny them the chance is unacceptable.

Holdup it was the day the document came out and I put out the relevant stuff to my members, but every one of my members could get a copy off me, or just read the copy I left in the canteen. In fact only three asked for it, so you do the maths.
Oh and we have a meeting next tuesday to discuss the agreement.
Cost is an issue in the real world I am afraid. Sending a copy to every member would be a complete waste of time and money. Reps will read it a small proportion of members and that is about it. Call it apathy call it whatever you want that
is just the way it is

EIGHT PAGES I put out the relevant stuff to my member

and when HQ send out information not telling your members that the £400 they receive on ratification they are due only 6 weeks later, did you point that out.
When they give the spin about the £1000 did you put out the information within the proposal that shows this was their money anyway.
I fully accept that you put out the 3pm last letter on a Saturday.
I fully accept that you put out the information about D2D.
But how can you claim that 18p for the full document to be printed on the cheapest A4 paper and 66p large letter cost for postage plus whatever envelope and manpower HQ would use to send the full agreement to every member is a waste of money is beyond me. Every member within the business is entitled to a full copy just out of fairness.
if they red it is up to them but to deny them the full agreement is verging on corruption, do you wnt our union to go down those lines.

They already do we have never had a FULL copy of any previous national agreements when we voted on them.
The three pm saturday thing is not part of this agreement. That is coming in agreement or not.

Relevant to my members at the first stage of reading the agreement I.e pay,D2d,sat attendance,lump sums all the other stuff has been disscused since and will be at our meeting tuesday week. I represent some 160 members and out of all of those 3 asked for a copy and they got one. You see my point the take up was not good. Apathetic yes totally agree but still a fact

[k979aaa]

This whole thread is bull. I got a copy of the agreement on the monday morning. i read the whole thing fished out about eight pages from a ninety odd page document and put them on my union board i then marked the bits on each page my members would need to read you know the important stuff,saturdays d2d pay etc after all that i still had members saying
can i slim it or dumb it down a bit. look if any member wants a copy it is easy enough to get hold of i am a unit rep and i think it would be a total waste of money to send every member across the country a copy

What gives you the right to decide what 8 pages are relevant to every member in your office. They might be the most important as far as your concerned but others might have differing opinions. The only way to give everyone a fair chance at coming to their own personal opinion is to allow them to read the full document.
in the eight pages did you include
page 2 which reaffirms the 2007 Pay & Modernisation Agreement (Lapsing and Flexibility)
Did you include the MTFS Amended Terms
Did you include the Generic Operational Transformation (giving the new six day standardised work plan.)
did you include page 16 Productivity (bring everyone's performance up to the top 10%.)
did you include Pages 17 through 28 Delivery Framework Agreement (possibly the most important to your members)
did you include Pages 58 to 63 Reward (Then again this might be the most important to your members)
Pages 64, 65 Deploying the Agreement
Annex C (when your members are going to get their lump sums and shorter working week

a few more than eight pages but still might not cover every question that Members might have.
Cost should not be an issue as it is the members money they pay into the Union they deserve to get the 80 page agreement.
To deny them the chance is unacceptable.

Holdup it was the day the document came out and I put out the relevant stuff to my members, but every one of my members could get a copy off me, or just read the copy I left in the canteen. In fact only three asked for it, so you do the maths.
Oh and we have a meeting next tuesday to discuss the agreement.
Cost is an issue in the real world I am afraid. Sending a copy to every member would be a complete waste of time and money. Reps will read it a small proportion of members and that is about it. Call it apathy call it whatever you want that
is just the way it is

EIGHT PAGES I put out the relevant stuff to my member

and when HQ send out information not telling your members that the £400 they receive on ratification they are due only 6 weeks later, did you point that out.
When they give the spin about the £1000 did you put out the information within the proposal that shows this was their money anyway.
I fully accept that you put out the 3pm last letter on a Saturday.
I fully accept that you put out the information about D2D.
But how can you claim that 18p for the full document to be printed on the cheapest A4 paper and 66p large letter cost for postage plus whatever envelope and manpower HQ would use to send the full agreement to every member is a waste of money is beyond me. Every member within the business is entitled to a full copy just out of fairness.
if they red it is up to them but to deny them the full agreement is verging on corruption, do you wnt our union to go down those lines.

They already do we have never had a FULL copy of any previous national agreements when we voted on them.
The three pm saturday thing is not part of this agreement. That is coming in agreement or not.

Relevant to my members at the first stage of reading the agreement I.e pay,D2d,sat attendance,lump sums all the other stuff has been disscused since and will be at our meeting tuesday week. I represent some 160 members and out of all of those 3 asked for a copy and they got one. You see my point the take up was not good. Apathetic yes totally agree but still a fact

So the other 157 are making an uninformed decision and don't say NOPE this time big boy!.

[peterloo]

I cant speak for the other 157 maybe they all read it on-line for all i know i hope so,what i do know is what lovejoy said that he estimates a good ninety % will not read the agreement and i would not argue with that. Not all posties are like the ones
on here who debate and scrutinise work practices and agreements some just rely on the union to check the fine print. Not great but there you go. I genuinly believe it wil not make a blind bit of difference to those high % of members if they get the
agreement through door or not

[fishtank]

I cant speak for the other 157 maybe they all read it on-line for all i know i hope so,what i do know is what lovejoy said that he estimates a good ninety % will not read the agreement and i would not argue with that. Not all posties are like the ones
on here who debate and scrutinise work practices and agreements some just rely on the union to check the fine print. Not great but there you go. I genuinly believe it wil not make a blind bit of difference to those high % of members if they get the
agreement through door or not

The problem is cackhill...How can are we or more importantly how can HQ decide just who wants to read the agreement and who doesn't?
I know of many members who have had a quick look through the copy in our office but are expecting to be able to read the full agreement in their own time when it comes through their letterbox.
That is their democratic right.

"when CWU members vote on the new National Agreement, they do so on the most informed basis possible."
Dave Ward
Deputy General Secretary (P)

[TrueBlueTerrier]

Here is a thought if Royal Mail and the Union think the deal is a good one then why don't they allow local managers to print off copies and leave them on peoples frames in DOs and where you sign on in every other type of unit.

Then all members who are interested will get a copy and the cost will be reduced for the Union and Royal Mail - a rare win/win situation perhaps.

[Steviea34]

Here is a thought if Royal Mail and the Union think the deal is a good one then why don't they allow local managers to print off copies and leave them on peoples frames in DOs and where you sign on in every other type of unit.

Then all members who are interested will get a copy and the cost will be reduced for the Union and Royal Mail - a rare win/win situation perhaps.

Your right of course, however it is in neither parties interest to have a fully understood agreement, after all the little you understand it ,
the more chance you can be blinded by the smoke & mirrors, also we need to remember when discussing lump sums, if you are not due to get W/S mail till
2012 then , no £600 + £200 till 2012, so however you vote, dont get expecting all these lump sums in one go