BBC PANORAMA DISCUSSION THREAD

[machineman]

guys as you prob know im an indoor mail centre worker if history of machines carrys on as it has WSM will throw out rejects all the time they will cut your sorting time as they did in our office when we got the imps upgraded and the new flat sorting machine then FAIL every night because the machines do not "do as it says on the tin" now we have o/t in to cover the the duties we lost spose it saves on holiday pay etc but is this a way of bringing in p/t ??

[baldrick]

but is this a way of bringing in p/t ??

At Mount Pleasant they are training Xmas casuals to work on the lsms, mtts and on the Tops2000.

[norbert]

could be like this for Tolhurst soon

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree ... ve-bell-if" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Seriously there is quite a few RM Senior Managers on borrowed time - look how many had to " persue other careers " after the 2007 dispute .

[Wessex]

Thank you smokerjim was going to put that up myself but guess we know the reason before hand you wont hear a peep out of ' mr royal fail ' and his sidekick buddy

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Private_James_Frazer" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

You get certain types everywhere - it's their prerogative .

Doooomed, you're all doooomed I tell ye .

[La Poste]

Seriously there is quite a few RM Senior Managers on borrowed time - look how many had to " persue other careers " after the 2007 dispute .

They will all get golden handshakes, in fact most of them probably have enough money to retire now.
It's a hard life for some.

[bullet baxter]

Postman have complained that the routes they are asked to complete have become so long that they have to dump even more post into bushes than before.

http://dawnofthejed.com/http:/dawnofthe ... ikes-loom/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[2old4this]

From dingo's post

"how we can protect jobs in the future and with increased automation it is the indoor element which is under risk , so do we lengthen the outdoor element to ensure protection. Or does the union do nothing and let all offices recieve proposals in the future based on this question."

The only way you can lengthen the outdoor element is to lose walk's and make those left longer. I'm over 50, now please a straight answer, these extra long deliveries you seem to want us to do, would you want to do them and just how many of us in delveries are going to lose our job's.
I can tell you now dingo. This is not why our office backed the strike. So that our union could tell us to work harder on deliveries and to run rough shot over job losses.

[Martin Walsh]

Fishtank the national agreement will provide some parimaters around delivery spans. The reason why they wont be one span agreed nationally is for a viarety of reasons , some offices will be getting walk sequencing machines before others , some will be having car derived vans before others and some will be getting both at the same time.

So it will be down to your local reps , Branchs to decide wether you perfer to keep 3.5 hour spans or you want to look at maximising full time jobs by going to a longer span. Without Car derived vans and the right equipment you cannot go much past 3.5 span. However anyone who has agreed a geo route revison there are quite a few who broke the unions policy already have a longer span as the 3.5 hour which geo route plotted is without replinishment time so once this is added to a walk then walks are longer than 3.5 hours.

However what i find is strange is that everyone is having a go at the union for daring to suggust longer spans may provide full time jobs in the future but then when the cwu suggust that the span should be determind by the local office taking into account some safeguards from the national agreement and that no office needs to agree longer spans that they are shirking their responsbilities.

Now for the record Belial the Gatwick and Bristol National union shows a reduction of indoor work far in excess than that you have quoted. I know the old walk sequencing trails which was under the safeguarding our future agreement never produced the figures which Royal Mail thought they would as in the cluster offices it didt do wave 4 or 5. However I think you will find both the Gatwick and Bristol trails are the only trails which have processed the mail which clears the mail centre at 4. 40 in the morning.

So in short the union is not and neither am i insisting you go past 3.5 hours that will be your reps choice and your choice but it will ultametely determine the amount of full time jobs. Intresting that CWU HQs have countless offices and reps around the country asking for the authority to move past 3.5 hours now.

[AnotherLimey]

Dingo i'm not interested in protecting full time jobs, i'm interested in keeping jobs doable for people that are full time, i have been a walking postman for 21 years now and am 41 years of age, im starting to feel the wear and tear of those 21 years on the streets and get home with stiff knees and various pains all over my body, sciatica being the bain of my life.

I was hoping to stay in this job until retirement being 67 now for the state pension and my company pension paying out in full at 64 rather that fully paid up at 59 like i was origanly promised, do you and the others in the PEC really think the older people in RM deliverys are going to keep going with the spans you guys are seeming to going to agree to?

Seems being a postie is going to be a job for those between 18 and 50 in the future, Such a shame

[Fluke]

Dingo i'm not interested in protecting full time jobs, i'm interested in keeping jobs doable for people that are full time, i have been a walking postman for 21 years now and am 41 years of age, im starting to feel the wear and tear of those 21 years on the streets and get home with stiff knees and various pains all over my body, sciatica being the bain of my life.

I was hoping to stay in this job until retirement being 67 now for the state pension and my company pension paying out in full at 64 rather that fully paid up at 59 like i was origanly promised, do you and the others in the PEC really think the older people in RM deliverys are going to keep going with the spans you guys are seeming to going to agree to?

Seems being a postie is going to be a job for those between 18 and 50 in the future, Such a shame

Well said! HQ seems to have forgotten about the older workers. If a 32 year old Royal Marine Fitness instructor cant complete one of Royal Fails so called 3.5hr deliveries then how the feck can a 60+ year old do a longer one? I think RM have already made their minds up to bin older workers that it has run into the ground so that it can move onto younger and fitter part timers (fit for now anyways ), hence the changes it made to medical and ill health retirement packages, so that they dont cost them as much during its move towards a disposable work force that it can use, abuse and then bin!

Let the fat old feckers in CWU HQ try their hand at one of the new longer deliveries that they suggest we try. I and my colleagues did not go on strike for local agreements (and BTW I'm a local rep) we want national agreements that local management cant squirm out of, and if longer walks are on the cards they need to be do-able by men and women over the age of 65. In order to do that we need NATIONAL AGREEMENTS and tools to measure and set work rates and walk speeds.

[Stormproof]

Dingo i'm not interested in protecting full time jobs, i'm interested in keeping jobs doable for people that are full time, i have been a walking postman for 21 years now and am 41 years of age, im starting to feel the wear and tear of those 21 years on the streets and get home with stiff knees and various pains all over my body, sciatica being the bain of my life.

I was hoping to stay in this job until retirement being 67 now for the state pension and my company pension paying out in full at 64 rather that fully paid up at 59 like i was origanly promised, do you and the others in the PEC really think the older people in RM deliverys are going to keep going with the spans you guys are seeming to going to agree to?

Seems being a postie is going to be a job for those between 18 and 50 in the future, Such a shame

Well said! HQ seems to have forgotten about the older workers. If a 32 year old Royal Marine Fitness instructor can complete one of Royal Fails so called 3.5hr deliveries then how the feck can a 60+ year old do a longer one? I think RM have already made their minds up to bin older workers it has run into the ground and move onto younger and fitter part timers (fit for now anyways ), hence the changes it made to medical and ill health retirement packages, so that they dont cost them as much, with the move towards a disposable work force

Let the fat old feckers in CWU HQ try their hand at one of the new longer deliveries that they suggest we try. I and my colleagues did not go on strike for local agreements (and BTW I'm a local rep) we want national agreements that local management cant squirm out of, and if longer walks are on the cards they need to be do-able by men and women over the age of 65. In order to do that we need NATIONAL AGREEMENTSand tools to measure and set work rates and walk speeds.

Totally agree with everything you have both said

[DirtyHarry]

The CWU has got to start getting it's head around the fact, that since 2003 and the introduction of SDD, the job of a walking postie has become very, very, physically demanding. The fact that posties aren't all 20somethings, and like every other human being we get older with each passing day.
The CWU has been trying to preserve F/T jobs, and that has to be applauded, but, and here is where they've got to come back down to planet earth, making an already very tiring, very physically demanding job, even more so, and extending outdoor delivery spans will do exactly that, is not on.

Dingo, would you have fancied being out in the freezing snow today, for 5 HOURS? As one poster has already said, you'll be driving people to jack the job in, or worse, make it even easier for management to get rid of fulltimers who won't be able to cope with the physical stress.

From day one, the union should never have gone along with RM's modernisation plans if they were detrimental to members interests. I barely recognise the job I once loved, so fast has it gone to the dogs, call a halt to the slide please.

[chewi]

Dingo i'm not interested in protecting full time jobs, i'm interested in keeping jobs doable for people that are full time, i have been a walking postman for 21 years now and am 41 years of age, im starting to feel the wear and tear of those 21 years on the streets and get home with stiff knees and various pains all over my body, sciatica being the bain of my life.

I was hoping to stay in this job until retirement being 67 now for the state pension and my company pension paying out in full at 64 rather that fully paid up at 59 like i was origanly promised, do you and the others in the PEC really think the older people in RM deliverys are going to keep going with the spans you guys are seeming to going to agree to?

Seems being a postie is going to be a job for those between 18 and 50 in the future, Such a shame

Well said! HQ seems to have forgotten about the older workers. If a 32 year old Royal Marine Fitness instructor can complete one of Royal Fails so called 3.5hr deliveries then how the feck can a 60+ year old do a longer one? I think RM have already made their minds up to bin older workers it has run into the ground and move onto younger and fitter part timers (fit for now anyways ), hence the changes it made to medical and ill health retirement packages, so that they dont cost them as much, with the move towards a disposable work force

As someone approaching 50 and who knows he isn't as fast as he was at 40, has it become chew us up and spit us onto the scrapheap? Dingo you and the union are there to protect us whatever our age. Let the PEC do a delivery for one day and find out how hard it is compaired to the 70's or even the 80's. And now we haven't even got a decent pension

Let the fat old feckers in CWU HQ try their hand at one of the new longer deliveries that they suggest we try. I and my colleagues did not go on strike for local agreements (and BTW I'm a local rep) we want national agreements that local management cant squirm out of, and if longer walks are on the cards they need to be do-able by men and women over the age of 65. In order to do that we need NATIONAL AGREEMENTSand tools to measure and set work rates and walk speeds.

Totally agree with everything you have both said

[Fluke]

Fishtank the national agreement will provide some parimaters around delivery spans. The reason why they wont be one span agreed nationally is for a viarety of reasons , some offices will be getting walk sequencing machines before others , some will be having car derived vans before others and some will be getting both at the same time.

So it will be down to your local reps , Branchs to decide wether you perfer to keep 3.5 hour spans or you want to look at maximising full time jobs by going to a longer span. Without Car derived vans and the right equipment you cannot go much past 3.5 span. However anyone who has agreed a geo route revison there are quite a few who broke the unions policy already have a longer span as the 3.5 hour which geo route plotted is without replinishment time so once this is added to a walk then walks are longer than 3.5 hours.

However what i find is strange is that everyone is having a go at the union for daring to suggust longer spans may provide full time jobs in the future but then when the cwu suggust that the span should be determind by the local office taking into account some safeguards from the national agreement and that no office needs to agree longer spans that they are shirking their responsbilities.

Now for the record Belial the Gatwick and Bristol National union shows a reduction of indoor work far in excess than that you have quoted. I know the old walk sequencing trails which was under the safeguarding our future agreement never produced the figures which Royal Mail thought they would as in the cluster offices it didt do wave 4 or 5. However I think you will find both the Gatwick and Bristol trails are the only trails which have processed the mail which clears the mail centre at 4. 40 in the morning.

So in short the union is not and neither am i insisting you go past 3.5 hours that will be your reps choice and your choice but it will ultametely determine the amount of full time jobs. Intresting that CWU HQs have countless offices and reps around the country asking for the authority to move past 3.5 hours now.

Cant tell you how disappointed in you i am! You have bought the HQ position hook line and sinker and in a very strong unified Union they might of just pulled it off! But they CWU WONT! Why because of HQs weakness and stupidity they have allowed far to much "local negotiations" i don’t know the % but i would think well over 50% of offices are unrepresented or very poorly represented by REPS on the ground so in those RM WILL IMPOSE "Local negotiations‘" on the workforce! Whilst you would seem to have a strong union in London the onslaught that bought you to IA was because of our Unions weakness nationally and you will gain NOTHING from our strikes in the next few years because even if they leave you alone next year they have broken the CWU elsewhere and they will be back for London’s scalp the year after. HQ never said directly we were striking because of phase FOUR ONLY (Their failed attempt at being reasonable)
But in truth we were hoodwinked into doing just that! You stick up for this shambles now but i lay money that your division will be crushed within Two years once the new and updated phase 4 is put in because whilst we will have had Four years to get used to being shafted you lot will get One year and will get NO support from the CWU HQ because its all "Local stuff!" If as a Trades Union Official you truly think this is good then god help grass roots Trade Unionists because he / she will be the only One that can! The Pay and Mod agreement was a disaster from start to finish that never even attempted to tackle the real issues with problems in our service but just rubber stamped RMs cuts to the service brought about by bad European Government legislation, bad national Government legislation, bad management and by far the worse crime as i see it TOTAL CR*P Representation from our own Trade Union! Who’s paying the price we are outside of London but if you think its bad now wait for what is planned for London’s future because of what happens in the next few weeks, so keep towing the party line as you are your just gonna love what’s coming!

You'd think that losing 1000 members a month would tell HQ that they've got things very wrong.

[Lincox]

Absolutley agree. Local agreements are not the way to protect working conditions. How can you have a man sacked for using his private car in one area, and in other areas management actively encourage it. ALL AGREEMENTS must be on a national basis so that we are all singing from the same hymn sheet. If the PEC put forward flimsy local bargaining conditions, RM will have us by the b.lls. Dingo, how do you justify local agreements, when surely you can see what the effect these have had on the manual workers trying to work under the 2007 Agenda.