I shall be voting "yes"

[gluteus maximus]

I am asking this question as a trade unionist, though not the CWU.

What are these legal protections being banded about. Correct me if i am in error but the UK courts do not recognise any agreement between a Trade Union and employer. If an agreement is now legally binding, (How) that agreement will be between the CWU and Royal Mail, not the employees.

Now if one side breaches said agreement, how do you quantify any loss. Any damages claimed will be minimal as you can only claim for any direct loss

[BernardBresslaw]

I am asking this question as a trade unionist, though not the CWU.

What are these legal protections being banded about. Correct me if i am in error but the UK courts do not recognise any agreement between a Trade Union and employer. If an agreement is now legally binding, (How) that agreement will be between the CWU and Royal Mail, not the employees.

Now if one side breaches said agreement, how do you quantify any loss. Any damages claimed will be minimal as you can only claim for any direct loss

This question has been asked (and dodged) too many times now. It's never been addressed, which is a worrying sign. It reads to me, that if RM negates any aspect of the agreement, all it will do is void any such agreement, which puts us back where we started.

It is also worth reading section 3 and understanding how TUPE works, which again is something that could potentially impact on legally binding aspects of the agreement.

[fishtank]

My prediction from many reps I have spoken to and members is that this is going to go through in a massive majority of those who vote.

I think we both know that the real thing that has HQ nervous is turnout.
Just how low does it go before you have to question the validity of any mandate?
Above 70% would be great but unlikely.
60-70% would not be great but acceptable.
Anything below that and we have real problems.

[britwrit]

Another potential source of trouble with this new incentive scheme is that early on, it was bandied about that it would replace local bonus schemes already in place.

Not to throw more gas on the whole mail-centres-have-it-so-good controversy but a lot of us in processing already have pretty good bonus payments in place. We have to give these up for some extra 100 quid - pro rata - at the end of the year?

(Yes, I know deliveries got screwed with Door-to-door payments in the last contract. Anyone who calls me a greedy pig on this one has it spot on. But I have to be true to myself....)

[aiden01]

no bonus payments in our mc.

[Martin Walsh]

I am asking this question as a trade unionist, though not the CWU.

What are these legal protections being banded about. Correct me if i am in error but the UK courts do not recognise any agreement between a Trade Union and employer. If an agreement is now legally binding, (How) that agreement will be between the CWU and Royal Mail, not the employees.

Now if one side breaches said agreement, how do you quantify any loss. Any damages claimed will be minimal as you can only claim for any direct loss

It is a legal contract between Royal Mail and the CWU , it dictates that Royal Mail can not break up the company , outsource any work , franchise any of its work , they cannot create a two tier work force or employ anyone on a zero hour contract. The commitments and protection have no end date and the first review is 2018.

The contract is between the CWU who have 85% membership in Royal Mail higher in urban areas. It appears as an annex to the agreement and is legally enforceable. It would not result in suing either party but if Royal Mail were to say employ zero hour contract or outsource work to a third party and broke the legal guarantees the CWU can seek an injunction that they had broken the legal contract and they like they have done to the CWU before be in contempt of court if they did not abide by the injunction.

[Pinky 1]

Pinky you could look at it this way , that the current status quo way of working is not doing you any favours and rejecting the agreement will not help in at all in your current way of working.

Whereas besides the Legal Protections which contrary to some on here are good ,and the pay award is very good in this current economy. You also have the following

A review into deliveries including a review in offices workload , traffic , revision plans.

A review into whether traffic recording is accurate.

Whether D2D is being give the work credit and time required

Whether absorption is being applied fairly and in line with current agreements

There will be a review to see whether the targets the business has set are realistic and achievable.

The work plan is set to change again and the current work plan will be reviewed.

There will be new incentive schemes for delivery employees.


Now the alternative is that you continue to do what you are doing now but as your unhappy currently what have you got to lose by voting yes ?

I appreciate what you're saying Dingo, but isn't it just promises to look into things ?
I've had years of them and most of them are just waffle i'm afraid. What i was looking for out of this agreement was something concrete to improve the working enviroment of the delivery staff.
Money is no motivation to me personally, only the working conditions i'm currently in and the future for those currently in the job.
And their future in the delivery office is going to be based on this agreement ? I'm sorry that's not good enough.
The CWU and Royal Mail had months to sort out the shambles that is deliveries, and being the largest group of union members, the CWU had an obligation to come out of those meetings with more than 'a review and a promise to do something'

[Martin Walsh]

Another potential source of trouble with this new incentive scheme is that early on, it was bandied about that it would replace local bonus schemes already in place.

Not to throw more gas on the whole mail-centres-have-it-so-good controversy but a lot of us in processing already have pretty good bonus payments in place. We have to give these up for some extra 100 quid - pro rata - at the end of the year?

(Yes, I know deliveries got screwed with Door-to-door payments in the last contract. Anyone who calls me a greedy pig on this one has it spot on. But I have to be true to myself....)

There are no incentive bonus schemes in Mail centres. There are ex bonus scheme payments in both Mail centres and delivery offices which won't be effected by incentive schemes. Equally your time bonus won't be effected where they still exist.

[dvbuk55]

I am asking this question as a trade unionist, though not the CWU.

What are these legal protections being banded about. Correct me if i am in error but the UK courts do not recognise any agreement between a Trade Union and employer. If an agreement is now legally binding, (How) that agreement will be between the CWU and Royal Mail, not the employees.

Now if one side breaches said agreement, how do you quantify any loss. Any damages claimed will be minimal as you can only claim for any direct loss

It is a legal contract between Royal Mail and the CWU , it dictates that Royal Mail can not break up the company , outsource any work , franchise any of its work , they cannot create a two tier work force or employ anyone on a zero hour contract. The commitments and protection have no end date and the first review is 2018.

The contract is between the CWU who have 85% membership in Royal Mail higher in urban areas. It appears as an annex to the agreement and is legally enforceable. It would not result in suing either party but if Royal Mail were to say employ zero hour contract or outsource work to a third party and broke the legal guarantees the CWU can seek an injunction that they had broken the legal contract and they like they have done to the CWU before be in contempt of court if they did not abide by the injunction.

OOOOOh I'll just bet Royal Mail are quaking in their boots at the prospect of court injunctions. If I was the CWU hierarchy I'd be trying to steer people away from the implications of the "Legally Binding" aspects of the agreement, because the more guff put out the worse it sounds.

As for a two tier workforce.......................we already have that and it's about to get worse, this agreement only agrees a predominantly full time work force which means sweet FA. Tell me do these agreements only include the core employees?

Am I against this agreement as I have been against all the others - yes, because each agreement has been progressively worse and this one is no different.

As for an incentive bonus scheme - forget it, been there, done that, got the t-shirt but no money...........do we really want to revisit that - yet another prospect for RM to get more work with empty promises.

[britwrit]

Another potential source of trouble with this new incentive scheme is that early on, it was bandied about that it would replace local bonus schemes already in place.

Not to throw more gas on the whole mail-centres-have-it-so-good controversy but a lot of us in processing already have pretty good bonus payments in place. We have to give these up for some extra 100 quid - pro rata - at the end of the year?

(Yes, I know deliveries got screwed with Door-to-door payments in the last contract. Anyone who calls me a greedy pig on this one has it spot on. But I have to be true to myself....)

There are no incentive bonus schemes in Mail centres. There are ex bonus scheme payments in both Mail centres and delivery offices which won't be effected by incentive schemes. Equally your time bonus won't be effected where they still exist.

Oh great, thanks. That's a relief. (I'm probably wrong in calling it a bonus scheme but at HWDC we get a monthly payment based on how well we hit various targets. Efficiency scheme?)

[Pinky 1]

Efficiency scheme ?
In a Delivery Office, if you hit a target for efficiency your bonus consists of more lapsing

[dvbuk55]

Efficiency scheme ?
In a Delivery Office, if you hit a target for efficiency your bonus consists of more lapsing

How the other half live eh pinky

[Pinky 1]

Efficiency scheme ?
In a Delivery Office, if you hit a target for efficiency your bonus consists of more lapsing

How the other half live eh pinky

I'm sorry but you've got to laugh ......... do we work for the same company ?

[britwrit]

Yeah, sorry. It's embarassing.

But just had to ask....

[chrisj]

Just exactly how do you measure performance and efficiency accurately in a way that is consistent throughout the organisation and how do you then narrow that so-called efficiency to individual performances? Answers on a postcard?

The efficiency drive has already started... even before we have had a chance to ratify the agreement... RM will try and squeeze as much as possible from delivery because we are the largest group and they have found out that they can milk us for more and more...

It should be embarrassing for a Senior Rep to keep talking about 'Reviews' as they mean much whilst at the same time saying all was really well with the old agreement save for those Units that are not strong. Even a good review (fat chance) will take time and then followed by a report and recommendation (often watered down or fudged), then a consultation and some action plan. This will take how long? at least 2 years but in the meantime some practices will have been embedded (on top of those previous contentious practices) and they will be hard to reverse...

Just how many times have we had politicians talking about 'Review' of this and that and then nothing comes off the review or something else happens or a new 'Regime comes along with a 'Review' of the previous 'Review'.

We are doomed in delivery and it does not help when our Senior Reps have turned into virtual Politician or embedded operatives even the phrases, language and tone is sounding more like politicians - 'this will be carried by a majority' and that will clinch it because we know what is good for you and we know most of you are ignorant of the full facts and implications...

Line manager comes to the IPS to chivvy posties that are merely wishing each other a Happy New Year - saying that it is all about performance... Sign of things to come?