Letter-theft postie in suspended jail term

[fishtank]

The excessive costs of the death penalty are mainly attributable to it's finality.
There is no room for mistakes if you are dealing with someone's life,that's what killed the death penalty off in this country in the first place and why it will hopefully never return.

It doesn't matter whether you believe in the theory behind the death penalty or not the reality is the risk in sending an innocent man or woman to their death is too high unless every single aspect of the case and the background of the offender is dismantled not once but in the case of many states in the U.S...at least three times.
That's a very expensive and time consuming endeavor

And for what?
There is no evidence to suggest that the death penalty serves as a deterrent for those committing the sort of crimes that would warrant it,it's biggest use in the US is as a plea bargaining tool.
Plead not guilty,face the death penalty,plead guilty and live.

[dvbuk55]

The death penalty should never be brought back,there have been too many people wrongly convicted of murder.I do believe prison should be a lot harder with no luxuries and anything destroyed in rioting should not be replaced i.e bedding,books or any exercise equipment,parole should be earned not given and the birch should be brought back for minor offences so people could be punished without getting a criminal record.

Well I don't subscribe to that theory, because there have been too many people wrongly executed is only a comparison in terms of those who have been correctly executed or would be. In battle there is attrition, naturally, some are blue on blue, which is lamentable and tragic but no amount of breast beating is going to change that but it is a small proportion of the total casualties. Using that same analogy I would say it is an acceptable statistic if you get it wrong now and again.

[DB1100]

The death penalty should never be brought back,there have been too many people wrongly convicted of murder.I do believe prison should be a lot harder with no luxuries and anything destroyed in rioting should not be replaced i.e bedding,books or any exercise equipment,parole should be earned not given and the birch should be brought back for minor offences so people could be punished without getting a criminal record.

Well I don't subscribe to that theory, because there have been too many people wrongly executed is only a comparison in terms of those who have been correctly executed or would be. In battle there is attrition, naturally, some are blue on blue, which is lamentable and tragic but no amount of breast beating is going to change that but it is a small proportion of the total casualties. Using that same analogy I would say it is an acceptable statistic if you get it wrong now and again.

Some people like Barry George have only been convicted because of the public outcry and the fact that he was a strange man,others have been convicted on DNA evidence only to find out later that it was a screw up at the Labs,if you look close a lot of people have been wrongly convicted and if society executed an innocent person doesn't that make society as guilty as the murderer?

[clashcityrocker]

Well I don't subscribe to that theory, because there have been too many people wrongly executed is only a comparison in terms of those who have been correctly executed or would be. In battle there is attrition, naturally, some are blue on blue, which is lamentable and tragic but no amount of breast beating is going to change that but it is a small proportion of the total casualties. Using that same analogy I would say it is an acceptable statistic if you get it wrong now and again.

What?
A sort of winners and losers mentality?

[dvbuk55]

Well I don't subscribe to that theory, because there have been too many people wrongly executed is only a comparison in terms of those who have been correctly executed or would be. In battle there is attrition, naturally, some are blue on blue, which is lamentable and tragic but no amount of breast beating is going to change that but it is a small proportion of the total casualties. Using that same analogy I would say it is an acceptable statistic if you get it wrong now and again.

What?
A sort of winners and losers mentality?

Pretty much really, but bear in mind you have to be in it to lose it. If you don't murder anyone there is an infinitesimal chance you're going to be hanged, though of course I wouldn't restrict the death penalty to murder.

[UnhappyGremlin]

To be honest, the thread has kind of gone off on a tangent. The basic point was that someone said alternatives to jail terms should be used as a deterrent, but no one made any suggestions, just argued against the opinions of a couple of us.

I'm pretty sure 90% plus of the country would vote for stronger and more severe sentencing in general, and maybe a smaller proportion, but still a majority, of the country would vote for the death penalty.

Re-offending rates are at the highest they've ever been, is it a coincidence that sentences/punishments are at their lowest levels/softest approach than ever before? I don't think so.

People aren't scared of the legal system anymore, they're not afraid of the consequences that arise from breaking the law.

An example, there was a case a few years ago of a druggie who robbed houses to pay for his addiction, the Police arrested him for 12 crimes they could tie him to, he was offered the chance to own up to more to get a REDUCTION on the sentence he would get for 12, at court he asked for a further 169 break ins to be taken into consideration, 181 crimes in total. He got 12 months, out in 6, and was re-arrested within a fortnight of his release for robbery. Is that justice?

[UnhappyGremlin]

Well I don't subscribe to that theory, because there have been too many people wrongly executed is only a comparison in terms of those who have been correctly executed or would be. In battle there is attrition, naturally, some are blue on blue, which is lamentable and tragic but no amount of breast beating is going to change that but it is a small proportion of the total casualties. Using that same analogy I would say it is an acceptable statistic if you get it wrong now and again.

What?
A sort of winners and losers mentality?

Pretty much really, but bear in mind you have to be in it to lose it. If you don't murder anyone there is an infinitesimal chance you're going to be hanged, though of course I wouldn't restrict the death penalty to murder.

So how far would you go? What crimes would you give the death penalty to?

[clashcityrocker]

The death penalty is pointless and barbaric.
While I might understand if we were having this debate in the fifteenth century, it beggars belief we can be having it in the 21st.

[dvbuk55]

Well I don't subscribe to that theory, because there have been too many people wrongly executed is only a comparison in terms of those who have been correctly executed or would be. In battle there is attrition, naturally, some are blue on blue, which is lamentable and tragic but no amount of breast beating is going to change that but it is a small proportion of the total casualties. Using that same analogy I would say it is an acceptable statistic if you get it wrong now and again.

What?
A sort of winners and losers mentality?

Pretty much really, but bear in mind you have to be in it to lose it. If you don't murder anyone there is an infinitesimal chance you're going to be hanged, though of course I wouldn't restrict the death penalty to murder.

So how far would you go? What crimes would you give the death penalty to?

Violent Rape, Terrorism - what the justice system tends to forget is the victim in all this - you have civil rights groups and reformists only too happy to justify criminality whilst the victims and their families are forgotten.

[clashcityrocker]

What is non-violent rape?

[dvbuk55]

What is non-violent rape?

Well despite the fact that many rapes aren't even reported I think I would leave it to the court to decide what would be the definition of violent rape. There is certainly a need for a reformation of the present crime and punishment regime.

[UnhappyGremlin]

The death penalty is pointless and barbaric.
While I might understand if we were having this debate in the fifteenth century, it beggars belief we can be having it in the 21st.

Well, is it much different to sentencing say, a 40 year old to life without chance of parole? What is the point of that? Whether he dies at 45 or 95 he isn't going to learn anything, he won't be rehabilitated, and even if he is he's never going to be released, so why waste the money keeping him all that time?
If it is proved beyond doubt that he is guilty, hang him.
Some people you can't deter, can't rehabilitate, and can't release back into the world. So why waste the money on the likes of Huntley and Sutcliffe? The families of their victims are still suffering, and will do until they die, they have been punished more than the criminals, and the families will probably continue to suffer for generations.

[fishtank]

I'm pretty sure 90% plus of the country would vote for stronger and more severe sentencing in general, and maybe a smaller proportion, but still a majority, of the country would vote for the death penalty.

I'm pretty sure that 90% of the country would not vote for the tax increases that go with the stronger and more severe sentencing.
I'm even more sure that they would not wish to open their curtains and see a maximum security prison staring back at them.
Public opinion is a fickle beast at the best of times,sometimes it's a dangerous,two faced,idiotic,uneducated fickle beast being fed on right wing half-truths and full lies.
I love Joe Public,but I couldn't eat a whole one.

[fishtank]

To be honest, the thread has kind of gone off on a tangent.

Those are the best threads,the original story was dull anyway.

[UnhappyGremlin]

I'm pretty sure 90% plus of the country would vote for stronger and more severe sentencing in general, and maybe a smaller proportion, but still a majority, of the country would vote for the death penalty.

I'm pretty sure that 90% of the country would not vote for the tax increases that go with the stronger and more severe sentencing.
I'm even more sure that they would not wish to open their curtains and see a maximum security prison staring back at them.
Public opinion is a fickle beast at the best of times,sometimes it's a dangerous,two faced,idiotic,uneducated fickle beast being fed on right wing half-truths and full lies.
I love Joe Public,but I couldn't eat a whole one.

But it would only last a generation, by which time the social changes would have kicked in. There is no quick fix.
There are plenty of places to build prisons that are nowhere near peoples homes.
As far as tax increases go, I think people would be willing to pay more for it, to feel safer. Plus, you'd save money by not keeping the prisoners in luxury, cuts can be made to the system as it is.
More prisons - more jobs, builders, prison officers, etc.

So what would you do to deter crime FT?