seniority problems

[travisbickle]

Some of us have been waiting for a full time contract for years even though we regularly do 40+ hours a week......

Is that the fault of the Full timers, is it reason enough to be grateful for a job, is it so much the workers fault that an expletive was used.

Its the fault of Management not aligning hours to tasks, it could be the fault of the Union not pushing RM hard enough, it could even be said that its the fault of people willing to do hours above and beyond their contract without complaint.

Unless official Industrial Action is taken, and Full Timers ignore the Unions instructions, its pointless to blame the situation on other workers. It also does not answer the question why workers should be grateful to have a job, after all some people don't seem grateful that they are getting extra hours above and beyond their contract, and I don't think they should be - they should be angry, but please aim that anger at the right target and do something about it, instead of perpetuating the "Divide and Conquer" ethos which appears rampant in Royal Mail.

Well as many of the full timers at our office come in an hours before their time i would say that it is their fault!

They aren't helping I'll grant you that, in fact I even mentioned it (highlighted) - but is sickofthejob one of those colleagues at your DO. I doubt it.

My posts are not about being combative and I hope you understand that, I am honestly trying to ascertain why you think we should be grateful we have a job.

I never said that we should be grateful to have a job, i said he should be grateful for a full time contract..........big difference.

[TrueBlueTerrier]

I never said that we should be grateful to have a job, i said he should be grateful for a full time contract..........big difference.

Ok thanks for that - it appears we have hit a dead end though as I can't see any difference. I just can't get my head round why the amount of hours you are contracted for should grade the amount of gratitude you should show to your employers - I honestly can't see the logic.

I think you are angry that you can't do the job they expect you to do in the hours they contract you. That anger is justified its just that I think you are aiming it at the wrong target and expect those colleagues who do the same job but with more hours should be grateful. I disagree those colleagues are not at fault for having a better contract, Royal Mail Managers are for expecting more than is reasonable and for pressurising people into working above and beyond their hours when they know they job cannot be completed in the time allotted.

[sickofthejob]

So basically the advice on here seems to be rollover and be "grateful i have a full time contract!".Looks like Alan Leightons legacy lives on!

[citypostie]

So basically the advice on here seems to be rollover and be "grateful i have a full time contract!".Looks like Alan Leightons legacy lives on!

Why would your rep agree to this? In our office it didn't matter who picked with who as long as there was a driver in each van (obviously), no deliverys where classed as FT or PT - we could pick any duty as they were all supposed to be equal....so all FT stayed FT and then the senior PT got made up until all FT duties had gone. Of course some senior part timers chose their duties before lower seniority full time staff but that was fair. With the part timers only working 3 days a week they do a full timers job on the days they work so it doesn't matter if a pair of full timers are off because any cover will be working the same hours.

[chrisj]

citypostie, you hit the nail on the head. All rounds should be more or less the same - so why should there be a need to have one walk over another walk? Secondly, what exactly is the advantage to Royal Mail and the way forward of seniority?

In my view, seniority might only be an advantage when it comes to IPS sorting or having local knowledge but within a few years on the job, most junior staff or PTs can also have that knowledge. This is particularly true when juniors/part timers do most of the cover and overtimes - which often involves many different walks.

We have 2 clowns in our office that do not drive and still expect to keep their walks despite the fact that their walks will be paired. They expect the planner to pair others walks to swerve round their inadequacies. Some even refuse to drive despite having a car - guess what? Most of these sort of people are senior staff.

Like someone said, some parttimers do full time hours anyways, they are more efficient and dont take the piss, yet some dinosaur thinks they should be favoured for serving time - easy time, for that matter.

Terrier, we should all be grateful to have a job! Consider the many number in Spain, Greece, Italy (especially the young one) without a job or future. And that is in Europe, not Africa!!! Its not always about what your government or employer can do for you...

[fishtank]

Terrier, we should all be grateful to have a job!

Why are you whining about seniority then?
You don't sound very....grateful.

[TrueBlueTerrier]

citypostie, you hit the nail on the head. All rounds should be more or less the same - so why should there be a need to have one walk over another walk? Secondly, what exactly is the advantage to Royal Mail and the way forward of seniority?

In my view, seniority might only be an advantage when it comes to IPS sorting or having local knowledge but within a few years on the job, most junior staff or PTs can also have that knowledge. This is particularly true when juniors/part timers do most of the cover and overtimes - which often involves many different walks.

We have 2 clowns in our office that do not drive and still expect to keep their walks despite the fact that their walks will be paired. They expect the planner to pair others walks to swerve round their inadequacies. Some even refuse to drive despite having a car - guess what? Most of these sort of people are senior staff.

Like someone said, some parttimers do full time hours anyways, they are more efficient and dont take the piss, yet some dinosaur thinks they should be favoured for serving time - easy time, for that matter.

Terrier, we should all be grateful to have a job! Consider the many number in Spain, Greece, Italy (especially the young one) without a job or future. And that is in Europe, not Africa!!! Its not always about what your government or employer can do for you...

your contempt for other workers oozes out of that post. I still say we should not be grateful as that allows, by default, managers and employers to take the piss so you can show your gratitude.

Managers and employers need employees so why don't they show their gratitude to us. However, the contempt shown for seniority and other workers, would indicate that you don't want them to show gratitude. Strange way you look at the world.

[chrisj]

I don't have contempt for other workers but piss-takers and people that are not realistic like you sound (you might not be like that in real life - for all I know).

However, from my short time in the job, I have encountered people that sound just like you... The old guard: us against them. We have been here for ever so deserve this and that. The irony is that these sort of people will likely get a junior member of staff in trouble because as things stand (or have been), the seniors/full-timers are protected and they get away with loads. Managers try to avoid confrontation with them... Some are also almost indispensable because of the way things are set up - they come in early to set up, they are drivers, they do IPS, they do overtime IPS, the do SA and other things - rarely delivery overtime. Some urge new starters to complain about this and that without realising that some are on probation and have to show gratitude and go the extra mile to have contracts renewed; maybe they don't care. Some even do deals with managers behind people's back - I saw this the last time we went on strike.

They also slag part-timers off for being grateful for having a job in this tough economic times. We are told that we allow managers to walk over us, yet, they slope off from the IPS thereby delaying part-timers and forcing us to help clear the missorts. The worst part is that when we finally try to stand up for ourselves, they talk about seniority and that we are trying to start a full time/part time conflict - we cannot win...

Mate, I am grateful for my job, I work hard and do my job as well as I can. I rarely have problems with my managers; on a one-to-one basis. I also enjoy working with a the vast majority of my colleagues... I know my basic rights and I am a member of the Union but I don't push things - I am a realistic leftist.

[TrueBlueTerrier]

me old guard

8 years in - I am in bottom 95% for seniority in my office.

By the way never said you should not be grateful, you can be what you want. I just don't think everyone should be grateful its a personal choice, you said

we should all be grateful to have a job

and I fundamentally disagree with that statement that everyone should feel a certain way. If you notice in my posts I don't "slag" people off for being grateful I simply state I don't understand the position that everyone should be grateful.

By the way, the problems you have at your office are nothing to do with seniority. Its down to poor management, possibly poor representation and to your FT colleagues being selfish idiots, but the blame for the mess would mainly lie in managements laps if they are not treating everyone fairly and with respect, and are not delegating or enforcing rules and agreements. Being a senior doesn't make anyone a prat, being a prat does it all by itself.

[fishtank]

some are on probation and have to show gratitude and go the extra mile to have contracts renewed

I'm afraid that showing gratitude and going the extra mile will have absolutely no effect on whether your contract is renewed.
Management cannot use such an arbitrary system to decide who stays or who goes,it would be a legal minefield.
Whether your contract is renewed will depend on two things...whether there is work available and whether you were last in or not....it's done that way not as some perk for us but because legally it's safer,not bulletproof but safer and that applies to most seniority within the business.
Of course management like to promote the idea that a little brown-nosing will help but it's a lie,they do not have the remit to make that kind of judgement.
I'm sorry if this means you have wasted a lot of "gratitude" but a little standing up for yourself,as long as it is warranted will have no effect on your job prospects at all.

[wood]

So in my office out P/T staffs were the last in, and our Business deal is based on (AWD) Actual working Duties, So P/T staff can’t be Reserves as Reserves were not part of any savings?

When your so called Colleagues only care about them self, start before time, no meal breaks, using private cars and cutting the job up who fault is it?

The Business will take away P/T and the F/T will have even more work to do.

[chrisj]

fishtank, I am not whining about seniority but railing against people that think it makes them set for easier jobs and other advantages. These people are still fairing well and less selfishness will do everyone a world of good.

for example, this week I am a spare and have had to do several different rounds; not because I am the most junior but because i know quite many rounds in the office through doing overtime and reserve and floating. I could have gone to the manager and said why dont you do this and that and make such and such do this or that.

I take the rough with the smooth - and I am grateful; even for the overtime because without it, I will be on about £200+ a week. And that is not enough. So a 40-hour postie with other duties and perks have it really good. They don't have to do half a round or another full round on overtime to make the same money...

PS. I used to have a round for almost 2 years, until a senior decided he wanted a round again; after rejecting the original one he picked. And guess what, he does not even like the round and he wont be able to keep it because he does not drive.

Yes, we can blame poor management but RM is still a quasi-govt job and the Unions are still reasonably powerful. Managers are all that keen to take on established staff or dont want to rock the boat.

[royal male]

fishtank, I am not whining about seniority but railing against people that think it makes them set for easier jobs and other advantages. These people are still fairing well and less selfishness will do everyone a world of good.

for example, this week I am a spare and have had to do several different rounds; not because I am the most junior but because i know quite many rounds in the office through doing overtime and reserve and floating. I could have gone to the manager and said why dont you do this and that and make such and such do this or that.

I take the rough with the smooth - and I am grateful; even for the overtime because without it, I will be on about £200+ a week. And that is not enough. So a 40-hour postie with other duties and perks have it really good. They don't have to do half a round or another full round on overtime to make the same money...

PS. I used to have a round for almost 2 years, until a senior decided he wanted a round again; after rejecting the original one he picked. And guess what, he does not even like the round and he wont be able to keep it because he does not drive.

Yes, we can blame poor management but RM is still a quasi-govt job and the Unions are still reasonably powerful. Managers are all that keen to take on established staff or dont want to rock the boat.

Get a life chrisj, Still not many jobs even today where the newbies walk in and take over. Agreed there are a few who think they should, but most quite rightly still have to work their way up. I've been in thirty three years, and if you were in our office I'd have you eaten for breakfast.

[chrisj]

How exactly can you eat someone for breakfast? Do you have special powers other than you do your job and I do mine. I am not easily intimidated even if I sound more than reasonable and you will not win regardless of how senior you are or influential you are.

It sounds like you think that you are in a boarding school or a prison. It is not!

[dvbuk55]

How exactly can you eat someone for breakfast? Do you have special powers other than you do your job and I do mine. I am not easily intimidated even if I sound more than reasonable and you will not win regardless of how senior you are or influential you are.

It sounds like you think that you are in a boarding school or a prison. It is not!

Wow! No s**t sherlock! Have you any experience of boarding school or prison? I mean you speak with such authority on these matters I assume you have held a position of authority somewhere at sometime - no don't tell me, don't tell me.................you used to be the milk monitor didn't you