goinpostal wrote:How can it be controlled by a single party if it is convened by branches and bases itself on democracy, elections etc? What is the alternative, leaving things in the hands of a bureaucratic leadership that already supports a party - the Labour Party?
Wildcat, both the main stream parties are in the pocket of the billionaires, and both are in favour of looting the public services our taxes pay for with privatisation etc. That's why we should all be supporting the national demo against cuts in the NHS on Nov. 3 and unite the public sector strikes. The way to stop the bosses abusing immigrant workers is to unionise them. 1000s of migrant workers from poland africa etc have joined unions in the last couple of years. Unite and fight!
There you are just showing your middle class arrogance.
I have watched as the bosses and the labour government have let hundreds of thousands of immigrants legal and illegal flood into this country whilst the local population is being pushed aside.
The local population were not given any say in whether or not they wanted mass immigration.
The majority of people in this country do not want continued mass immigration.
I have nothing against a limited amount of immigration and it is welcome,however I object to some patronising middle class twat telling me that the local neighbourhood where I grew up being swamped by people that have a totally alien language and culture(actually several different languages and cultures) is good for me as I and others are fining out pretty quickly that it is not.I don't care if they are unionised or not it still doesn't change the fact that in large parts of inner cities the local population is being displaced.
The point you made about the mainstream parties in the pockets of the billionaires brings me back to a previous point I made.
The fact that the media have played such a big part in dumbing people down over the last 30 years has allowed this situation to occur.(the point I made about football etc)
It is only because workers and the public are not acting against what the government and big business are doing that they are getting away with it.
I have watched a miniature version of this going on in my own office where a corrupt union official in bed with the management has allowed them to massively gain the upper hand.
All it took was a few people to expose what was going on and to get everyone and I mean everyone on board and the situation was quickly turned around.
The media dumbing and mass immigration have created a situation of confusion and chaos which the bosses have exploited for all its worth.
That is why I say an end to mass immigration now and lets rebuild and focus our attack and gain the conditions back we have lost.
Yer true colours are showing now aren't they, I fail to see any link with building a rank and file movement and immigration, perhaps you can enlighten me.
The Industrial Workers of the World. The union whose members never scab!
"The working class and the employing class have nothing in common."
well id say people who go around calling workers middle class becaue they dont agree with them is what is arrogant. im a reserve thats the toughest job in our office. Your the one defending middle class small busines owners and the rich mate! next you'll be saying leighton and crozier are wealth creators like the government does!
arent you just playing the bosses game wild cat, its the bosses you defend like richard branson who are responsible for unemployment, the fact that the rich pay no tax and the poor and workers pay more and more, the housing crisis, nhs cuts, privatisation and all the rest. Its not refugees or migrant workers their even poorer than us. just like the government you blame asylum seekers for our problems.
The migrant workers in my office strongly support the union, you want to divide us. That's like giving in to the managers when they try to play off delivery staff against drivers against office staff etc. No thanks pal, you can keep your poison. We need to unite and FIGHT.
Wild Cat wrote:If the workers run the economy they then become the establishment the bureaucracy what ever you want to call it.
The entrepreneurs and the risk takers are the people who create wealth with the help of the workers,they have the ideas and creativity and we implement their ideas and add our own creativity as well.
Our job is to make sure that we gain our fair share from the overall prosperity that both parties create the problem at the moment is that the bosses want it all for themselves and don't care about us.
We have to make them see that we will not stand idly by whilst they use such practices as paying immigrant workers peanuts and throwing local workers onto the dole.
There will always be a struggle between the workers and the bosses however it doesn't mean we have to overthrow the political system to achieve our goals.
Don't you think the workers are capable of coming up with ideas or of being creative? I think they do. I think it was Albert Meltzer who said the working class is the only revolutionary class because it is the only class which has no need to exploit other people.
Yes I do think the workers are capable of coming up with ideas and many of them do start their own businesses.
However if you have a communist style system they will have no motivation to be creative,as they will still only earn the same wages as those that don't bother to make the effort.
Think of Richard Branson,if he could only have earned the same money as an average worker would he have bothered starting up all those companies?
We can improve our pay and conditions and still allow people to become millionaires. There is no point stifling peoples creative ability by taking away their financial motivation.
However they must not be financially motivated to be creative at the expense of the workers,as we must reap the rewards of their success as well,which is what we are failing to do now.
I believe a large amount of the blame for our failure to achieve decent pay and conditions lies within ourselves,as we have succumb to decades of mind numbing propaganda and brainwashing by the media and government and no longer believe in ourselves any more,and therefore have given up the fight.
An example being young people today seem to care more about big brother,drink, drugs,celebs,play stations and football more than they do fighting for their jobs.
The average person in my office could tell you exactly how much Beckham earns a week,but when asked how much they earn probably don't know.
People will have to remove themselves from the media dumbing down before anything can be achieved.
I agree with some of the things you say, but the capitalist system stifles the creativity of the working class. Every one of us can look around us and see things which could be improved inside and outside the workplace. Why should any of us bother to come up with ideas to make the job more efficient when all we would be doing would be lining the pockets of the rich? There is no form of socialism that I am aware of which thinks kids hanging about on street corners drinking or using drugs as a means of escape is a good thing, but capitalism actively encourages this sort of behaviour. It welcomes it because it keeps people from thinking about their lives and how better things could really be if society was run for the benefit of everyone and not just a handful of grabbers and parasites.
That is the point I am making is that at the moment we have extreme capitalism,as the media have tried and succeeded in removing the social cohesion within communities.
We can push the capitalism back to the point where we control what goes on in society and not the bosses.
In my parents generation you had religious values something the extreme left have helped to remove.
In their generation there wasn't so much drinking on street corners as there is now and yet there was still a limited form of capitalism,so I do not see the link.
The left helped to create the situation of family breakdown just as much as the capitalists,something which they will never take responsibility for.
Wild Cat wrote:I have watched as the bosses and the labour government have let hundreds of thousands of immigrants legal and illegal flood into this country whilst the local population is being pushed aside.
and chaos which the bosses have exploited for all its worth.
That is why I say an end to mass immigration now and lets rebuild and focus our attack and gain the conditions back we have lost.
So a nice bit of ethnic cleansing would solve all our problems.Oh whats the point some people are just too far gone
Wild Cat wrote:That is the point I am making is that at the moment we have extreme capitalism,as the media have tried and succeeded in removing the social cohesion within communities.
We can push the capitalism back to the point where we control what goes on in society and not the bosses.
Isn't that called 'The Third Position'?
The Industrial Workers of the World. The union whose members never scab!
"The working class and the employing class have nothing in common."
goinpostal wrote:How can it be controlled by a single party if it is convened by branches and bases itself on democracy, elections etc? What is the alternative, leaving things in the hands of a bureaucratic leadership that already supports a party - the Labour Party?
Wildcat, both the main stream parties are in the pocket of the billionaires, and both are in favour of looting the public services our taxes pay for with privatisation etc. That's why we should all be supporting the national demo against cuts in the NHS on Nov. 3 and unite the public sector strikes. The way to stop the bosses abusing immigrant workers is to unionise them. 1000s of migrant workers from poland africa etc have joined unions in the last couple of years. Unite and fight!
There you are just showing your middle class arrogance.
I have watched as the bosses and the labour government have let hundreds of thousands of immigrants legal and illegal flood into this country whilst the local population is being pushed aside.
The local population were not given any say in whether or not they wanted mass immigration.
The majority of people in this country do not want continued mass immigration.
I have nothing against a limited amount of immigration and it is welcome,however I object to some patronising middle class twat telling me that the local neighbourhood where I grew up being swamped by people that have a totally alien language and culture(actually several different languages and cultures) is good for me as I and others are fining out pretty quickly that it is not.I don't care if they are unionised or not it still doesn't change the fact that in large parts of inner cities the local population is being displaced.
The point you made about the mainstream parties in the pockets of the billionaires brings me back to a previous point I made.
The fact that the media have played such a big part in dumbing people down over the last 30 years has allowed this situation to occur.(the point I made about football etc)
It is only because workers and the public are not acting against what the government and big business are doing that they are getting away with it.
I have watched a miniature version of this going on in my own office where a corrupt union official in bed with the management has allowed them to massively gain the upper hand.
All it took was a few people to expose what was going on and to get everyone and I mean everyone on board and the situation was quickly turned around.
The media dumbing and mass immigration have created a situation of confusion and chaos which the bosses have exploited for all its worth.
That is why I say an end to mass immigration now and lets rebuild and focus our attack and gain the conditions back we have lost.
Yer true colours are showing now aren't they, I fail to see any link with building a rank and file movement and immigration, perhaps you can enlighten me.
deleted
Last edited by Wild Cat on 28 Sep 2007, 17:28, edited 1 time in total.
Wild Cat wrote:That is the point I am making is that at the moment we have extreme capitalism,as the media have tried and succeeded in removing the social cohesion within communities.
We can push the capitalism back to the point where we control what goes on in society and not the bosses.
goinpostal wrote:How can it be controlled by a single party if it is convened by branches and bases itself on democracy, elections etc? What is the alternative, leaving things in the hands of a bureaucratic leadership that already supports a party - the Labour Party?
Wildcat, both the main stream parties are in the pocket of the billionaires, and both are in favour of looting the public services our taxes pay for with privatisation etc. That's why we should all be supporting the national demo against cuts in the NHS on Nov. 3 and unite the public sector strikes. The way to stop the bosses abusing immigrant workers is to unionise them. 1000s of migrant workers from poland africa etc have joined unions in the last couple of years. Unite and fight!
There you are just showing your middle class arrogance.
I have watched as the bosses and the labour government have let hundreds of thousands of immigrants legal and illegal flood into this country whilst the local population is being pushed aside.
The local population were not given any say in whether or not they wanted mass immigration.
The majority of people in this country do not want continued mass immigration.
I have nothing against a limited amount of immigration and it is welcome,however I object to some patronising middle class twat telling me that the local neighbourhood where I grew up being swamped by people that have a totally alien language and culture(actually several different languages and cultures) is good for me as I and others are fining out pretty quickly that it is not.I don't care if they are unionised or not it still doesn't change the fact that in large parts of inner cities the local population is being displaced.
The point you made about the mainstream parties in the pockets of the billionaires brings me back to a previous point I made.
The fact that the media have played such a big part in dumbing people down over the last 30 years has allowed this situation to occur.(the point I made about football etc)
It is only because workers and the public are not acting against what the government and big business are doing that they are getting away with it.
I have watched a miniature version of this going on in my own office where a corrupt union official in bed with the management has allowed them to massively gain the upper hand.
All it took was a few people to expose what was going on and to get everyone and I mean everyone on board and the situation was quickly turned around.
The media dumbing and mass immigration have created a situation of confusion and chaos which the bosses have exploited for all its worth.
That is why I say an end to mass immigration now and lets rebuild and focus our attack and gain the conditions back we have lost.
Yer true colours are showing now aren't they, I fail to see any link with building a rank and file movement and immigration, perhaps you can enlighten me.
obviously you do not see it as a problem that mass immigration continues uncontrolled,however that is where we will have to disagree as I cannot see how it is going to improve things.
Think I'll be disagreeing with you on a lot more than that.
goinpostal wrote:How can it be controlled by a single party if it is convened by branches and bases itself on democracy, elections etc? What is the alternative, leaving things in the hands of a bureaucratic leadership that already supports a party - the Labour Party?
Wildcat, both the main stream parties are in the pocket of the billionaires, and both are in favour of looting the public services our taxes pay for with privatisation etc. That's why we should all be supporting the national demo against cuts in the NHS on Nov. 3 and unite the public sector strikes. The way to stop the bosses abusing immigrant workers is to unionise them. 1000s of migrant workers from poland africa etc have joined unions in the last couple of years. Unite and fight!
There you are just showing your middle class arrogance.
I have watched as the bosses and the labour government have let hundreds of thousands of immigrants legal and illegal flood into this country whilst the local population is being pushed aside.
The local population were not given any say in whether or not they wanted mass immigration.
The majority of people in this country do not want continued mass immigration
I have nothing against a limited amount of immigration and it is welcome,however I object to some patronising middle class twat telling me that the local neighbourhood where I grew up being swamped by people that have a totally alien language and culture(actually several different languages and cultures) is good for me as I and others are fining out pretty quickly that it is not.I don't care if they are unionised or not it still doesn't change the fact that in large parts of inner cities the local population is being displaced.
The point you made about the mainstream parties in the pockets of the billionaires brings me back to a previous point I made.
The fact that the media have played such a big part in dumbing people down over the last 30 years has allowed this situation to occur.(the point I made about football etc)
It is only because workers and the public are not acting against what the government and big business are doing that they are getting away with it.
I have watched a miniature version of this going on in my own office where a corrupt union official in bed with the management has allowed them to massively gain the upper hand.
All it took was a few people to expose what was going on and to get everyone and I mean everyone on board and the situation was quickly turned around.
The media dumbing and mass immigration have created a situation of confusion and chaos which the bosses have exploited for all its worth.
That is why I say an end to mass immigration now and lets rebuild and focus our attack and gain the conditions back we have lost.
Yer true colours are showing now aren't they, I fail to see any link with building a rank and file movement and immigration, perhaps you can enlighten me.
I don't want to get involved in political argument, it serves no useful purpose. Who controls the media, controls the masses. There's neither the will nor more importantly the finances to reform. It will remain as it is.
As for the criticism of someone showing his true colours I think it is perfectly legitimate to discuss immigration - it is a problem and that is not an isolationist nor racist view. We have growing communities of immigrants from European and non-European countries who don't share our history or traditional values. The way the Government has handled the situation has not helped those who feel disenfranchised by the system either in housing or in the employment market. I truly believe that in order to rectify the situation it needs to be openly discussed without prejudicial judgement.
