Any point being in union?

[TrueBlueTerrier]

You could look at it in that way and say local agreements allow for a lack of unit etc or you could look at it that things which the union have agreed which are compulsory are not very popular like the delivery supplement. So could you imagine the union coming out and saying that all revisons have to come in on the same date , the same times of attendance , the same level of part timers , the same Saturday finish , the same start times , the same number of delivery points and the same productivity.

Do you think the union would be more popular or less popular if it did this ?

Come on Dingo was there any need to use the Reductio ad absurdum argument. Every competent and sensible member of the Union would realise that the points you quoted could not be agreed for local units on a national level, but certainly I think members on the shop floor could come up with ones that could.

For instance, my own office had lapsing being done before you did your own duty and that meant people cut off their own deliveries or more likely did unpaid overtime. Now if the Union when they agreed lapsing had it written in that lapsing should be done AFTER then I firmly believe that lapsing would not be the bug bear it is now.

I think the Union should always produce a framework and minimum and maximum positions that help protect the members T&Cs, that Royal Mail cannot and should not break. For instance we are about to go through P&L in Huddersfield and its like fighting a gorgon, so many rumours about attendance patterns are going round. The worst is that they are going to force us to go to 6 day weeks with a 1 in 6 week off - I, and others in the know are trying to explain they can't do this, but it would be a lot easier if the agreement said in Plain English that attendance patterns can and will be agreed not imposed. I know it says that in the agreement and that its the Union position but why is it being left to activists and the well informed to explain it. Its a bit late now but 2 years into the agreement you would have thought the Union would have sent members an easy to read guide on P&L and revision activity after all RMCs motto is not just a bunch of words its actually a good guide to life. The more informed the members are the stronger the Union is.

[silly suffolk]

i've always known management dream up crap like world class mails flow bsi, the list is endless, but why o why do the union get embroiled in it, other than to keep endlessley debating it with management on an endless cycle which confuses and pisses off the rank and file. we need headquarters to get a ####### grip, give us some hard and fast rules the whole country stick to, explain it in laymens terms, and then get out in the field and see whats going on.

[BELIAL]

Or you could say management and union talk the same language,and you lot don't get it ,so f**k off

[Martin Walsh]

Sorry TBT fish made a point which was clearly against the principle of local agreements which I have to say is shared by a lot of posters on here so I pointed out my opinion.

Now in terms of your point well we have a framework , we have a six phase plan , we probably have more involvement then we have ever had , we have a menu of options , we have more guidelines then we have ever had , in fact we are drowning in guidelines , we have delivery method guidelines , we have updates on IWT , we have had stress and fatigue reports. The whole point is that we have what you say , it's either not being communicated or it's being communicated and branch,s and local offices are not adhering to it.

Now Suffolk I don't get your argument , Royal Mail are spent thousands if not millions devloping delivery best praticise which is based on 100BSI and CDVs , longer delivery spans etc, do you think if the union ignores it that Royal Mail will simply put it in the drawer and not use it or do you think they will try and introduce it in every office they can ? So obviously the union has to tackle it head on.

[silly suffolk]

Sorry TBT fish made a point which was clearly against the principle of local agreements which I have to say is shared by a lot of posters on here so I pointed out my opinion.

Now in terms of your point well we have a framework , we have a six phase plan , we probably have more involvement then we have ever had , we have a menu of options , we have more guidelines then we have ever had , in fact we are drowning in guidelines , we have delivery method guidelines , we have updates on IWT , we have had stress and fatigue reports. The whole point is that we have what you say , it's either not being communicated or it's being communicated and branch,s and local offices are not adhering to it.

Now Suffolk I don't get your argument , Royal Mail are spent thousands if not millions devloping delivery best praticise which is based on 100BSI and CDVs , longer delivery spans etc, do you think if the union ignores it that Royal Mail will simply put it in the drawer and not use it or do you think they will try and introduce it in every office they can ? So obviously the union has to tackle it head on.

but the union are being seen to make peoples working lives harder by going along with this agreement which is un ravelling. if the union is percieved to be singing from the same hymn sheet as management, people will think why be in this union.

[fishtank]

Sorry TBT fish made a point which was clearly against the principle of local agreements.

It wasn't against the principle of local agreements.
It was against the application of local agreements.
The theory is sound,the practice is an absolute disaster for a great deal of the country.
Some would say "feck them" and leave the weak to their fate.
Like i said mercenary,rabble etc,etc...

[Cut Off King]

Sorry TBT fish made a point which was clearly against the principle of local agreements.

It wasn't against the principle of local agreements.
It was against the application of local agreements.
The theory is sound,the practice is an absolute disaster for a great deal of the country.
Some would say "feck them" and leave the weak to their fate.
Like i said mercenary,rabble etc,etc...

Thats why I have always been against local agreements, strong offices get good T&C's , weak offices get turned over- dispite the fact that we all PAY THE SAME SUBS, get paid the same for doing the same job, whatever area we're from !

Local agreements HELP management to shaft the employee.

The CWU has helped devide it's self....some are on 40 hours , others are on 39 hours FOR THE SAME PAY !
Some are lapsing, while others arn't
Some are doing 2.5 hour walks, others are doing 6 hours
Some are on 4 day weeks and others are doing 5 days a week

LOCAL AGREEMENTS DON'T WORK.

LOCAL AGREEMENTS ONLY BENIFIT STRONGER OFFICES

THE CWU HAVE DIVIDED, AND RM HAVE CONQUERED

[Cheetah]

Sorry TBT fish made a point which was clearly against the principle of local agreements which I have to say is shared by a lot of posters on here so I pointed out my opinion.

Now in terms of your point well we have a framework , we have a six phase plan , we probably have more involvement then we have ever had , we have a menu of options , we have more guidelines then we have ever had , in fact we are drowning in guidelines , we have delivery method guidelines , we have updates on IWT , we have had stress and fatigue reports. The whole point is that we have what you say , it's either not being communicated or it's being communicated and branch,s and local offices are not adhering to it.

Now Suffolk I don't get your argument , Royal Mail are spent thousands if not millions devloping delivery best praticise which is based on 100BSI and CDVs , longer delivery spans etc, do you think if the union ignores it that Royal Mail will simply put it in the drawer and not use it or do you think they will try and introduce it in every office they can ? So obviously the union has to tackle it head on.

Dingo, not wishing to gang up on you, as i'm sure your input to this forum is appreciated by all, however all the guide lines from above mean nothing and I almost feel it is the way of the union higherarchy divorcing themselves from the reality. A guide line is of no use if it is not being followed by those for whom it is intended and the grass routes membership reaping the rewards of a fair united union directing it's officials and ensuring their guidance is followed.
The BT 2010 document for guidance and reference produced nationally is being blatantly ignored in our office by the Unit rep and by Area, the union activists such as myself are locked in a constant battle with our office rep as his full support is going to management constantly in direct contravention of those guide lines ( which we actually gave him, much to his disaprooval).
He has the constant support of Area even though many of us have expressed our dissaprooval in the form of writing, telephone calls etc to area, who's response is the rep is okay as he is working on the fringes of the agreement , which is absolute rubish. We have had a vote on the issue management and union officials are attempting to force upon the workforce, which had a probable 90%+ vote against the package, yet 2 weeks later the rep has raised the issue again balloting the workforce on the SAME package, telling us we can't keep saying no !!!!!!!
He and Area are in direct contravention of the unions Guidance document, the membership are only asking for that document to be adhered to....... Who is ensuring things like this are not going on, and drawing back in line the rogue officials who are ignoring the unions guidance..... It seems to me NO ONE . So as I have said these Guidance documents mean NOTHING because they are NOT being followed......
I have quoted what is going on in our office but it is very evident we are not an iscolated case from this forum. The union higherarchy must get real, get more involved in what is going on in the units, get more involved and raise their profile with the grass roots membership, ensure their reps are doing a good job for the membership and remove those who are not. There are still many excellent union officials but their reputation is being tarnished by reps who are in the job for their own ends which is most unfair!!!!!!
Action must be taken and soon else I fear a mass exedous from the union is on the cards , as going back to our unit there is NO point in being in the union now, in fact we would be far better off with NO rep as there would be no one to do the managers dirty work, constantly working against the membership

[fishtank]

LOCAL AGREEMENTS ONLY BENIFIT STRONGER OFFICES

I don't believe that this loose,unregulated "do as you please" version of local agreement benefits anyone in the long run.
For local agreement to work it has to be within the framework of strong, unambiguous national guidelines and has to be policed by a Branch and Area structure that will move quickly when offices look like they will move outside those guidelines either voluntarily or by management diktat.

There is nothing strong or unambiguous about the guidelines set by BT2010 and the Branch and Area structure has shown that not only are they incapable of policing this agreement,sometimes they have been guilty of moving offices outside the guidelines themselves.

"Strong offices" are and will be increasingly isolated because when you are stuck with a union network that continually fails to organise and fails to protect in huge areas of the country only weakness can flourish and spread,never strength.

I think these "talks" are an indication of the first real fall-out from the BT2010 agreement.
I think it has fragmented and weakened the union so badly that our national officers have a real fear that they cannot force the pace on any talks over our future terms and conditions.
I believe that they have taken our biggest weapon for forcing concessions...national industrial action and squandered it one time too many.
I think it's time for a dramatic change of direction and/or leadership.
I fear these talks may never end.

[Cheetah]

I do hope the posts on here don't fall on deaf ears...... Like it or not poeple who go on this forum on the whole are passionate about the union and are the people on the shop floor can be a great asset to that union, doing their best to get staff to support and follow the union, getting people involved in the union etc...... If they are ignored and dissmissed I feel this will be a futher nail in the coffin of the union and yet another opportunity missed

[TrueBlueTerrier]

Now in terms of your point well we have a framework , we have a six phase plan , we probably have more involvement then we have ever had , we have a menu of options , we have more guidelines then we have ever had , in fact we are drowning in guidelines , we have delivery method guidelines , we have updates on IWT , we have had stress and fatigue reports. The whole point is that we have what you say , it's either not being communicated or it's being communicated and branch,s and local offices are not adhering to it.

We do I pointed that out in my post.

It would be a lot easier if the agreement said in Plain English that attendance patterns can and will be agreed not imposed. I know it says that in the agreement and that its the Union position but why is it being left to activists and the well informed to explain it. Its a bit late now but 2 years into the agreement you would have thought the Union would have sent members an easy to read guide on P&L and revision activity after all RMCs motto is not just a bunch of words its actually a good guide to life. The more informed the members are the stronger the Union is.

However your list of documents, which even you say "we are drowning in", does not really fit my wish for a "Easy to read guide". I don't believe for a second that the CWU is trying to control the flow of information in the belief that's how they can control the members, but you can see how some would.

Thanks for responding though I do like our discussions even if we don't see eye to eye on everything.

[silly suffolk]

i have a great deal time for dingo, he comes on here and has his say, and seems a bloody sight cleverer than me, but i hope he realises the discontent out in the sticks and passes it on in the corridors of power, we all need a banner to rally round, we don't want our union leaders the lackies of management. better to die fighting than rollover and die?

[UNION JACK]

NOPE NO POINT WHAT SO EVER !!!!!!!!!!!!

[arnold cheshire]

NOPE NO POINT WHAT SO EVER !!!!!!!!!!!!

true

[dvbuk55]

The union is a spent force, it cannot organise the membership, it cannot reconcile its own finances, it is largely bogged down with its own importance as is only too obvious from some of the union posters on here, it has no collective responsibility, it couldn't negotiate its way out of a cul de sac, it has no vision of what the memberships aspirations are, it perpetuates itself in an unhealthy electoral system. Look at the never ending chattering going over the same issues time after time and ending in pretty much what RM wanted in the first place.

The best indication of how important the Branch in my area considers itself is:

Notification of local imperatives on union affairs.....................Nil

Election address for vacant union position..............................Two

Content of election address - pretty much identical, "I know the problems that deliveries are beset with and will do my utmost to reconcile the problems ,,,blah de blah", a pity they don't actually reconcile any problems in their own units that are beset with problems.

Many on here have called for a change to the leadership which isn't going to happen.