IR framework to change

[TrueBlueTerrier]

shame - all that work and you still failed us

The CWU's attitude towards part time employees remains abusive.

2010 - the biggest pay cut in history of man - £50 a week deduction.

and a measly £200 lump of s**t

Thats a £2600 loss a year .

Like i say - abused

How do you work out that figure ? I would be intrested to know , bearing in mind your pay will go up by the hourly rate going up from the shorter working week. So I am not doubting you may lose but I would want to know how you lose £50 per week .

I am a bit confused the only shift allowances touched are £12 and £6 and they are paid pro rata to part timers now so i am not sure where your £15 comes from ? I persume you currently have 700 delivery points and you perform 3 door to door every week discounting christmas and leave.

To be honest I think he is re-quoting things on here that he has picked up and has got them wrong.

From previous posts he appears to be on a 25 hour contract which IIRC only came in generally after the P&M07 agreement. If he joined after that then he wont get the ESA. If he did start before 2007 on early starts then it is unlikely he would be on a delivery only duty which he has claimed in the past.

I think he has read the different values of ESA could not remember what the highest was and guessed at it being around £15.

Although I do have sympathy with him saying he is loosing £35 in D2Ds I am losing £30 from 600+ delivery and from memory (which is always questionable) I have had since Christmas

0 weeks with no D2D
1 week with only 1
1 week with 2 (and 1 of these was paying 2.0p +)
and the rest of the time 3 per week.

[fishtank]

dingo wrote
I hear some of the rubbish posted on here ranging from we wont get the 3.5 % in the third year, we will be on unlimited delivery spans , we will get 10 d2d , we wont get improved attendances and we wont have less Saturdays and we wont be able to perform D2D within our work time

The reason people feel like that is two fold.

1. There are absolutely NO GUARANTEES in the agreement that the any of the above will or will not be achieved.
2. Members have longer memories than negotiators and are not prepared to risk their future employment terms on a bunch of well meaning but ultimately unsubstantial promises from Royal Mail.

Look all the spin in the world do not make you right.

Can't fault you on that 100% spot on

[singingpostman]

dingo wrote
I hear some of the rubbish posted on here ranging from we wont get the 3.5 % in the third year, we will be on unlimited delivery spans , we will get 10 d2d , we wont get improved attendances and we wont have less Saturdays and we wont be able to perform D2D within our work time

The reason people feel like that is two fold.

1. There are absolutely NO GUARANTEES in the agreement that the any of the above will or will not be achieved.
2. Members have longer memories than negotiators and are not prepared to risk their future employment terms on a bunch of well meaning but ultimately unsubstantial promises from Royal Mail.

Look all the spin in the world do not make you right.

Can't fault you on that 100% spot on

Must agree, nobody has yet explained to me how RM can manage with less staff on a Saturday than any other day, unless the ones that are working are getting shafted, this jam tomorrow speil from the proposed agreement just isnt enough, dot some I's and cross some T's if you want any chance of getting the yes vote the CWU seems desperate for, with many more meetings going on then ever there was to encourage strike action,sorry its getting to the point where the management and CWU are as difficult to tell apart as New Labour and the Tories

[Spartacus]

dingo wrote
I hear some of the rubbish posted on here ranging from we wont get the 3.5 % in the third year, we will be on unlimited delivery spans , we will get 10 d2d , we wont get improved attendances and we wont have less Saturdays and we wont be able to perform D2D within our work time

The reason people feel like that is two fold.

1. There are absolutely NO GUARANTEES in the agreement that the any of the above will or will not be achieved.
2. Members have longer memories than negotiators and are not prepared to risk their future employment terms on a bunch of well meaning but ultimately unsubstantial promises from Royal Mail.

Look all the spin in the world do not make you right.

Can't fault you on that 100% spot on

Must agree, nobody has yet explained to me how RM can manage with less staff on a Saturday than any other day, unless the ones that are working are getting shafted, this jam tomorrow speil from the proposed agreement just isnt enough, dot some I's and cross some T's if you want any chance of getting the yes vote the CWU seems desperate for, with many more meetings going on then ever there was to encourage strike action,sorry its getting to the point where the management and CWU are as difficult to tell apart as New Labour and the Tories

Doesn't say anywhere that RM will be using less staff on a Saturday, it says that YOU will be working less Saturdays, That's achieved by 4 day weeks, 9 day fortnights and other changes to shift patterns.

[singingpostman]

dingo wrote
I hear some of the rubbish posted on here ranging from we wont get the 3.5 % in the third year, we will be on unlimited delivery spans , we will get 10 d2d , we wont get improved attendances and we wont have less Saturdays and we wont be able to perform D2D within our work time

The reason people feel like that is two fold.

1. There are absolutely NO GUARANTEES in the agreement that the any of the above will or will not be achieved.
2. Members have longer memories than negotiators and are not prepared to risk their future employment terms on a bunch of well meaning but ultimately unsubstantial promises from Royal Mail.

Look all the spin in the world do not make you right.

Can't fault you on that 100% spot on

Must agree, nobody has yet explained to me how RM can manage with less staff on a Saturday than any other day, unless the ones that are working are getting shafted, this jam tomorrow speil from the proposed agreement just isnt enough, dot some I's and cross some T's if you want any chance of getting the yes vote the CWU seems desperate for, with many more meetings going on then ever there was to encourage strike action,sorry its getting to the point where the management and CWU are as difficult to tell apart as New Labour and the Tories

Doesn't say anywhere that RM will be using less staff on a Saturday, it says that YOU will be working less Saturdays, That's achieved by 4 day weeks, 9 day fortnights and other changes to shift patterns.

Having just reread the Saturday part of the proposed agreement it certainly in the first paragraph suggests that Saturdays are being treated as a special day as far as numbers attending is concerned, and again there are no guarantees about less Sats worked just a vague promise about the majority of employees (which will be the ones with the strongest reps at local level), however lets move on, you say 4 days weeks, so a 9-45 day on a Saturday !!!!!!!!!!. Let me out of here. Who wants mail in the middle of a Saturday afternoon ?, jeez talk about dont mend it if it aint broken. Poor ol doms used to being home by 9am on a Saturday cant think they are too impressed either.

[DirtyHarry]

The agreement says:

"We will review and simplify the IR framework with consistent principles by Autumn 2010 which reflect our new relationship."

So if you vote 'Yes' you are voting for an unspecified change to the IR framework.

Will it be anything like the new POL IR framework?

http://www.cwu.org/news/archive/cwu-win ... mbers.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Changing the IR framework has been in every agreement since the way forward and there has yet to be changed. In any case Dave Ward gave a commitment last week at Bounemouth that the proposed changes would be brought to the unions conference this year open to motions and any new agreement would be subject to another ballot of the membership. So you are not voting on an unspecified change to the IR framework.

It wont be anything like the POL framework as the interfaces are totally different as is your structure which is based on territories where as Royal Mails are based on Divisions.

This is another reason why it is important that your local rep attends the local reps briefings. I do sometimes wonder if any of the posters who slag off the deal or slag off the negotatiors have ever negotiated an important agreement on behalf of their members. If they have then you know why things are in the agreement and exactly why they are in their and why they are worded like that. In this agreement pratcically every page was fought on, thats why when I hear some of the rubbish posted on here ranging from we wont get the 3.5 % in the third year, we will be on unlimited delivery spans , we will get 10 d2d , we wont get improved attendances and we wont have less Saturdays and we wont be able to perform D2D within our work time well simply you have not read the agreement and the cross references within the Generic Operational Framework or the deployment framework.

Look all the spin in the world do not make you right.

The one thing I can accept why people are voting no is if they are losing money over the 42 weeks per year when they perform D2D and over 52 weeks of the supplement. I know that there are thousands of members in this bracket and I therefore understand this issue. But please dont spin the rest of it, in a 90 page agreement there is a lot to be explained this is why the union has decided to hold face to face meetings with every single unit rep in the UK. The agreement does need explaining and why things are worded in that way.

Do not under estimate the fact that Roger Poole and ACAS will oversea the agreement, yes some people may mock that but they were in the room and know for example that everyone in deliveries who wants less saturdays will get them as this is the first thing that happens before any step of the revison procdure read it on page 31. The only reason on page 29 that it says the majority is that in many offices in the country there are Saturday only part timers well you could hardly give them one in four Saturdays off , plus some on Wallington schemes ( one week off in six ) may not wish to change.

Now lastly some comments on here about my DOM said this or that is complete rubbish. We all know by now the DOMs will do whatever there told to do. Last week in Rugby all managers of a senior level were told by Higson, Tolhurst and Cameron that they have to work with the CWU with the full terms of this agreement and cannot adopt their own policies.

Yes we still need to see if their words are also matched with their actions.

Now lastly I have noticed that over the last two weeks the level of debate on here has become to slag any one off with an alternative opinion. Well Royal Mail chat was never designed in that way and whilst I have not seen eye to eye with some posters we have had sensible debates. Dont ruin this site or some like myself will just switch off and then your be left with all the same views would be rather boring then. However if you put a sensible arguement then am more than happy to have a debate.

Don't worry, mate. I conducted a straw poll in my office today, and about half, around 30 members, will be jacking their memberships in if this travesty of a deal goes through, we've had enough of being shafted, we've had enough of wasting our time and money in disputes that just leaves worse off once they're finished, than we were before they started.
You were told on here, time and time again, no longer Saturdays, and no more D2D, we told you we wanted our working conditions improved, not impaired further, and what happened, we were ignored.

[POSTMAN]

Now lastly I have noticed that over the last two weeks the level of debate on here has become to slag any one off with an alternative opinion. Well Royal Mail chat was never designed in that way and whilst I have not seen eye to eye with some posters we have had sensible debates. Dont ruin this site or some like myself will just switch off and then your be left with all the same views would be rather boring then. However if you put a sensible arguement then am more than happy to have a debate.

As always appreciate your comments and info dingo and thanks for putting in the above.

Now to the crux of it,we have an agreement based on 'trust',which tbf has to go both ways,i think most of us deep down know that it is going to get in,and what is in the agreement we have to swallow,whether we like it or not.
There are good things in it if followed by both parties and theres a few dodgy bits.

Most on here have been burnt by P&M,i have been burnt by the 4 day week thing.
We already have an agreement which is being ignored by RM and that is the interim one.
Obviously this is being sorted now,but they have taken the piss big time with this.
They have seriously dragged their feet on this one.

The members need s**t regular updates,we need mass assurances that the words are being followed.
No doubt a lot of stuff will be on here,either from you lovejoy or the truth.But HQ ,Divs and Branches need to pick up the ball.

But the proof will be what WE post,just as it was after 07.

Hold onto your hats,round 2 is a coming.

PS:Everyone else,behave yourselves on here ffs!

[banddy]

shame - all that work and you still failed us

The CWU's attitude towards part time employees remains abusive.

2010 - the biggest pay cut in history of man - £50 a week deduction.

and a measly £200 lump of s**t

Thats a £2600 loss a year .

Like i say - abused

How do you work out that figure ? I would be intrested to know , bearing in mind your pay will go up by the hourly rate going up from the shorter working week. So I am not doubting you may lose but I would want to know how you lose £50 per week .

I am a bit confused the only shift allowances touched are £12 and £6 and they are paid pro rata to part timers now so i am not sure where your £15 comes from ? I persume you currently have 700 delivery points and you perform 3 door to door every week discounting christmas and leave.

if you're in delivery side you will get just over £20 (every week) - the £8 is for mail centre staff

[UNION JACK]

The best idea i can come up with is agree the deal, withdraw your union subs, take all the payments and go find another job and get out of this god forsaken circus.

[fishtank]

The best idea i can come up with is agree the deal, withdraw your union subs, take all the payments and go find another job and get out of this god forsaken circus.

Why not reject the deal,withdraw your subs if it is accepted,take all the payments that will be coming to you anyway through the colleague share agreement and find another job.