Wilful Delay of Mail

DGP1 · Post by **DGP1** » 19 Oct 2008, 17:30

Only 2 of the 6 we've had have been posties with 3 coming from transport and 1 from the RLC.

It's probably the reason that things are so bad now, they have no idea what is involved in the job.

axeman · Post by **axeman** » 19 Oct 2008, 17:51

Who says they earn more than i do 'teaman' do you know something i dont ? by the way you are so,so wrong you have simply no idea as to what i earn only a guess as to my pay at royal fail

ps.. most managers are failures as posties so go on the acting list and thats why the willingness to do exactly what is pushed onto them from above as they are to weak to say no and are scared of losing 'the job' once made up
Instructions yes you could be onto somthing here most of the managers who have worked at my do would need writen instructions how to put on there shoes and tie the laces

collar and tie richard branson doesn't wear one (a tie) so does wearning one make you a better person ,does it increase you knowledge , does it make you more inteligent ............i guess not so just what is your point 'teaman'

Tman · Post by **Tman** » 19 Oct 2008, 18:10

than i

do 'teaman' do you know something i dont ? by the way you are so,so wrong you have simply no idea as to what i earn only a guess as to my pay at royal fail

You seem to tell me I'm wrong in all your posts, it's your standard reply it seems,but why wouldn't I know what you earn? All RM pay rates are freely available to view, unless you're trying to say there's a special pay rate only you're on? A secret pay-rate for super posties?

ps.. most managers are failures as posties so go on the acting list and thats why the willingness to do exactly what is pushed onto them from above as they are to weak to say no and are scared of losing 'the job' once made up
Instructions yes you could be onto somthing here most of the managers who have worked at my do would need writen instructions how to put on there shoes and tie the laces

There's the last of any credibility gone then....

collar and tie richard branson doesn't wear one (a tie) so does wearning one make you a better person ,does it increase you knowledge , does it make you more inteligent ............i guess not so just what is your point 'teaman'

My point is as before, but reinforced by the paragraph above; why the ovewhelming bitterness toward managers?

axeman · Post by **axeman** » 19 Oct 2008, 18:22

If you read it properly you'd guess i just might do something outside of royal fail , but there you go you show the traits of management so no suprise that you didn't pick it up as you can clearly focus only on the one thing at a time

i have no bitterness toward managers but i do recognise them for what there worth and yes your right in thinking i'm not exactly 'for' them as most are so incapable that they can only resort to bullying to get the work done ...please note it doesn't work on me

Post by **rockytony67** » 19 Oct 2008, 19:19

Tman wrote:Don't know why you pour such scorn on your managers, after all probably 99% of them started as posties themselves.
Is it that they earn more money than you, or come to work in a collar and tie, or give instructions, or what?

You are quite right Tman, most of them started of as posties, and that's why those of us who worked with them as posties and know them, have such a low opinion of them, not all of course there are some good managers who have come up through the ranks, but most of them are what is known as failed postman, they are people who couldn't handle the job, and yet they now bully and threaten people doing the delivery job that they there self could not handle(in easier times)Maybe that's why some of us pour scorn on them

Post by **baldrick** » 19 Oct 2008, 19:44

Most of the managers I've worked with in the past came up 'through the ranks' - a few years as a postman/woman,
then probably another 3-4 years as a PHG, before they became Managers. They knew the job and the staff. Most were
OK and doing it for the extra money.
Over the last few years we have had people becoming Acting Managers then Managers after a few months as Casuals/PT and others going from OPG because they had a bad Attendance Record, or were not up to doing an OPG duty. Some have become established as Managers because they were Acting and were not put back to OPG after 6 months, and became automatically entitled to permanent contracts because of the oversight.

I-POSTIE · Post by **I-POSTIE** » 19 Oct 2008, 20:42

Over the past few years I have re-evaluate how I approach my job within Royal Mail. I state this because when I began my career with Royal Mail they had an concept of delivering the mail which differentiates by current standards and could, even in this very short time, seem to be old fashioned. Mail had to be delivered on time, in good condition excreta, all in all employees had to follow the rules. The rule concerning wilful delay therefore has existed for a long time, its intention to prevent employees from stealing, stashing or deciding to deliver the mail when it is more convenient to themselves than to the customer. This is an equitable use of rule making within Royal Mail and applies to everyone irrespective of rank. However, this rule in the current Leighton/Crozier era is being manipulated to make employees work beyond their finishing times. Whilst Leighton and Crozier are proposing that mail volumes are falling simultaneously as a result of current and previous changes the number of deliveries in each delivery office have been cut at a steeper rate. The resulting circumstance is that each of us is carrying more and yet finding ourselves in difficulties on occasion and in some cases daily, not being able to complete our deliveries within the scope of our duties. At the point at which our duties end we are now not allowed to, “cut off,” and return any undelivered mail to the delivery office unless we have reported our concern about our inability to complete the delivery to the office manager prior to taking out our delivery. This of course leaves the door open for Royal Mail management to continuously overload us knowing fall well they can get away with it.

I think all of us know the consequences of following the rules. As a result of telling your manager that you believe that you will be unable complete your delivery within your duty time so that they are able to take action in order to make sure that all the mail for the delivery that you are responsible for is delivered you are made to feel that you are not doing your job. Clearly the air turns palpable when the cost of your delivery for that day just took some more out of their budget. The unspoken managerial edict is: you came to work today therefore your fate is sealed, you take out whatever you are given for as long as it takes, for only a basic days pay. At the other extreme of this situation is that you are told should you go over your finishing time you will be allowed to ask for extended docket overtime. My manager during WTL wanted to impress upon all of us this is what Royal Mail wanted when he heard disgruntled remarks, telling us it was an, “earnings opportunity,” that he thought that we would all jump at. In reality this is all a complete nonsense. Ask once and it will be granted. Ask a second time and the implications begin. The palpable atmosphere arrives. They question you as if you are trying to defraud the Royal Mail. The straight faced staring with long gaps between flat voiced sentences. You know it, you have been there. It is all to insinuate this is the last time you should ask. In short intimidation tack ticks to make you work for free. The latest in my unit is that the manager is telling those whom ask for extended docket too often that they are not “working hard enough,” and asking them to sign a form to say that they will not cut off when they are acutely aware that those whom are requesting payment have deliveries that are too large. I recommend that nobody signs this form. You are under no legal or contractual obligation to do so. It only aids Royal Mail should circumstances arise that you decide to take Royal Mail to a employment tribunal.

In reality I believe it would be rather difficult for Royal mail to bring a delivery person to court on a charge of wilful delay for cutting off their delivery at the end of their duty. The charge of wilful delay in the legal sense and that which Royal Mail originally intended would have to qualify as an intentional decision to deceive, therefore knowingly leaving mail that could have delivered at your unit, not delivering mail in your proper working hours, stashing mail in order to deliver it at another time. The original rule was not intended that management use it to manipulate employees into a no win situation where there is no specific finishing time for their employment on any given day. The truth is this would mean that Royal Mail would have to take to court every casual worker whom did not complete a delivery and spend money funding a department just to follow up every case that was reported and prosecuted. However the door is open for Royal Mail to trump up an internal case against full-time employees for punishment and dismissal. I know of a case where employee was moved to a office miles away from his home so as to make their life impossible in order to force them out of their job. This is the vicious face of the the Leighton/Crozier management system. I ask where is the union? Why have they allowed this to happen? As point of import, I ask what is the point of defending the pension scheme if none of us will able to work until 60 years old for Royal Mail under these conditions?

In conclusion, the current use of the wilful delay rule is not a point of law but an abuse of the law in order to control and frighten employees. As such I believe if Royal Mail tried to prosecute an employee for bringing mail back to their unit at their contractual finishing time having worked properly and continuously from the time they left their unit they would be laughed out of court for they have a responsibility to make sure employees have a fair and reasonable workloads that can be completed by the average person within their contracted hours. Does this sound like Leighton and Crozier's Royal Mail?

DGP1 · Post by **DGP1** » 19 Oct 2008, 20:54

My manager has threatened me with 'wilful delay' so often that I just now laugh in his face (the same goes with most of the staff in my DO).

Tman · Post by **Tman** » 20 Oct 2008, 21:53

axeman"]If you read it properly you'd guess i just might do something outside of royal fail ,

You mention "your DO" so are you RM staff or not? Simple question.

BELIAL · Post by **BELIAL** » 20 Oct 2008, 22:01

Oh the grudges

axeman · Post by **axeman** » 20 Oct 2008, 23:23

But no straight answer ''teaman'' doesn't that pis* you off

................. next you'll be asking me my address

BELIAL · Post by **BELIAL** » 20 Oct 2008, 23:32

NI no;std code;favourite food

andy2007 · Post by **andy2007** » 21 Oct 2008, 00:09

Tman wrote:
axeman"]If you read it properly you'd guess i just might do something outside of royal fail ,
You mention "your DO" so are you RM staff or not? Simple question.

He could be from the so-called competition. They Deliver to our DOs, so perhaps he's referring to the one he Delives to.

Tman · Post by **Tman** » 21 Oct 2008, 16:03

andy2007 wrote:
Tman wrote:
axeman"]If you read it properly you'd guess i just might do something outside of royal fail ,
You mention "your DO" so are you RM staff or not? Simple question.
He could be from the so-called competition. They Deliver to our DOs, so perhaps he's referring to the one he Delives to.

But then why would he refer to "his" DO, and why would or should he have such strong views regarding "our" RM managers?
Probably (if he can't admit to being a postie) he's canteen staff, bog cleaner or some other such role. Either way, I'm sure he's really too old to be playing the "not telling you, so there" game

(as if it matters or anyone even cares).
In reality, he's only keeping his grade quiet to save face over the dumb claim that I didn't know what he earnt, after all.....

madelin4 · Post by **madelin4** » 21 Oct 2008, 18:03

I-POSTIE wrote:Over the past few years I have re-evaluate how I approach my job within Royal Mail. I state this because when I began my career with Royal Mail they had an concept of delivering the mail which differentiates by current standards and could, even in this very short time, seem to be old fashioned. Mail had to be delivered on time, in good condition excreta, all in all employees had to follow the rules. The rule concerning wilful delay therefore has existed for a long time, its intention to prevent employees from stealing, stashing or deciding to deliver the mail when it is more convenient to themselves than to the customer. This is an equitable use of rule making within Royal Mail and applies to everyone irrespective of rank. However, this rule in the current Leighton/Crozier era is being manipulated to make employees work beyond their finishing times. Whilst Leighton and Crozier are proposing that mail volumes are falling simultaneously as a result of current and previous changes the number of deliveries in each delivery office have been cut at a steeper rate. The resulting circumstance is that each of us is carrying more and yet finding ourselves in difficulties on occasion and in some cases daily, not being able to complete our deliveries within the scope of our duties. At the point at which our duties end we are now not allowed to, “cut off,” and return any undelivered mail to the delivery office unless we have reported our concern about our inability to complete the delivery to the office manager prior to taking out our delivery. This of course leaves the door open for Royal Mail management to continuously overload us knowing fall well they can get away with it.

I think all of us know the consequences of following the rules. As a result of telling your manager that you believe that you will be unable complete your delivery within your duty time so that they are able to take action in order to make sure that all the mail for the delivery that you are responsible for is delivered you are made to feel that you are not doing your job. Clearly the air turns palpable when the cost of your delivery for that day just took some more out of their budget. The unspoken managerial edict is: you came to work today therefore your fate is sealed, you take out whatever you are given for as long as it takes, for only a basic days pay. At the other extreme of this situation is that you are told should you go over your finishing time you will be allowed to ask for extended docket overtime. My manager during WTL wanted to impress upon all of us this is what Royal Mail wanted when he heard disgruntled remarks, telling us it was an, “earnings opportunity,” that he thought that we would all jump at. In reality this is all a complete nonsense. Ask once and it will be granted. Ask a second time and the implications begin. The palpable atmosphere arrives. They question you as if you are trying to defraud the Royal Mail. The straight faced staring with long gaps between flat voiced sentences. You know it, you have been there. It is all to insinuate this is the last time you should ask. In short intimidation tack ticks to make you work for free. The latest in my unit is that the manager is telling those whom ask for extended docket too often that they are not “working hard enough,” and asking them to sign a form to say that they will not cut off when they are acutely aware that those whom are requesting payment have deliveries that are too large. I recommend that nobody signs this form. You are under no legal or contractual obligation to do so. It only aids Royal Mail should circumstances arise that you decide to take Royal Mail to a employment tribunal.

In reality I believe it would be rather difficult for Royal mail to bring a delivery person to court on a charge of wilful delay for cutting off their delivery at the end of their duty. The charge of wilful delay in the legal sense and that which Royal Mail originally intended would have to qualify as an intentional decision to deceive, therefore knowingly leaving mail that could have delivered at your unit, not delivering mail in your proper working hours, stashing mail in order to deliver it at another time. The original rule was not intended that management use it to manipulate employees into a no win situation where there is no specific finishing time for their employment on any given day. The truth is this would mean that Royal Mail would have to take to court every casual worker whom did not complete a delivery and spend money funding a department just to follow up every case that was reported and prosecuted. However the door is open for Royal Mail to trump up an internal case against full-time employees for punishment and dismissal. I know of a case where employee was moved to a office miles away from his home so as to make their life impossible in order to force them out of their job. This is the vicious face of the the Leighton/Crozier management system. I ask where is the union? Why have they allowed this to happen? As point of import, I ask what is the point of defending the pension scheme if none of us will able to work until 60 years old for Royal Mail under these conditions?

In conclusion, the current use of the wilful delay rule is not a point of law but an abuse of the law in order to control and frighten employees. As such I believe if Royal Mail tried to prosecute an employee for bringing mail back to their unit at their contractual finishing time having worked properly and continuously from the time they left their unit they would be laughed out of court for they have a responsibility to make sure employees have a fair and reasonable workloads that can be completed by the average person within their contracted hours. Does this sound like Leighton and Crozier's Royal Mail?

Excellent excellent post i postie, yes its all scare tactics!! lets see it in court!!!!!!!!!