Royal Mail staff in Ramadan holiday row

[ramone]

Ramone wrote;
I have read this thread with a great deal of interest. As a humanist, secularist and atheist (I just get holidays and get no choice about the Xmas or Easter ones lol!!) I have an issue with people taking time off for religious days – (I don’t have a problem with holidays) but where will it end …. If I believed Elvis was still alive (There are people out there who do believe this!) and I went to my DOM and asked him for a day off to watch a few DVD’s to celebrate his life or death, quite rightly the DOM could and would p*** him self laughing. If people are religious then surely it should be personal and remain within their personal time and their religion should not determine working practise. Let’s separate the workplace from religion as if we start to try to accommodate all the religious holidays I’ll not be able to pick my holidays, as I will be covering for all those who are off!!

The Ramones - - - - performed 2,263 concerts, touring virtually nonstop for 22 years. In 1996, after a tour with the Lollapalooza music festival, the band played a farewell show and disbanded. By a little more than eight years after the breakup, the band's three founding members—lead singer Joey Ramone, guitarist Johnny Ramone, and bassist Dee Dee Ramone—had all died.

I don't think it's a good idea for you Ramone to have time off!

Actually I think I will start a religion for the gods that are the Ramones - as they have been eight members of the band to date and three have died - that will give me 11 "holy days" connected to they birthdays and dates of their deaths which will allow me to worship at the alter of my surround speakers. I then can pray for a reunion at the Marquee where all good people can mosh to Blitzkrieg Bop have a good time and possibly sell some cracking T - shirts

PS Everyone knows "Bird" is the word! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2WNrx2jq184" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[clashcityrocker]

I have read this thread with a great deal of interest. As a humanist...............

"Humanism is the view that we can make sense of the world using reason, experience and shared human values and that we can live good lives without religious or superstitious beliefs."
Isn't tolerance of other's beliefs a shared human value?

[ramone]

"Humanism is the view that we can make sense of the world using reason, experience and shared human values and that we can live good lives without religious or superstitious beliefs.
Isn't tolerance of other's beliefs a shared human value?

Absolutley - as long as those values are that of respecting women as equals, not abusing children by the use of physical violence, sexual and pyschological abuse, not discriminating on the grounds of someones innate sexual orientation, colour of a person's skin or their ethnicity, treating people fairly, also that these values are based on fact not myth.

[beinspired]

THE END

[axeman]

"Humanism is the view that we can make sense of the world using reason, experience and shared human values and that we can live good lives without religious or superstitious beliefs.
Isn't tolerance of other's beliefs a shared human value?

Absolutley - as long as those values are that of respecting women as equals, not abusing children by the use of physical violence, sexual and pyschological abuse, not discriminating on the grounds of someones innate sexual orientation, colour of a person's skin or their ethnicity, treating people fairly, also that these values are based on fact not myth.

No !!! it's ok to force your women to walk three paces behind you and prevent them obtaining a worth while education !! (better to have an arranged marigge) and before you ask i personaly know some young muslim girls this has happened to they were forcefully removed from school (6 form) and didn't like it at all ,,,, and it's ok to make them cover up for the sake of male dominence !!

[beinspired]

"Humanism is the view that we can make sense of the world using reason, experience and shared human values and that we can live good lives without religious or superstitious beliefs.
Isn't tolerance of other's beliefs a shared human value?

Absolutley - as long as those values are that of respecting women as equals, not abusing children by the use of physical violence, sexual and pyschological abuse, not discriminating on the grounds of someones innate sexual orientation, colour of a person's skin or their ethnicity, treating people fairly, also that these values are based on fact not myth.

No !!! it's ok to force your women to walk three paces behind you and prevent them obtaining a worth while education !! (better to have an arranged marigge) and before you ask i personaly know some young muslim girls this has happened to they were forcefully removed from school (6 form) and didn't like it at all ,,,, and it's ok to make them cover up for the sake of male dominence !!

You really are a prat axeman! I have Muslim frieinds, and I can tell you for sure that Islam does not allow forced marriages! As for women walking 3 paces behind men - this is also alien to the religion. I don't know where you get your info from, but you need to speak to an actual muslim and you will see that Islam insists on educating men and women equally and that women should be treated with respect and love by their husbands and male relatives.

[fishtank]

I know husbands that treat their wives like sh*t and it's got f*ck all to do with religion...i also know wives that...etc,etc.
Some people are a*seholes...end of story.

[axeman]

"Humanism is the view that we can make sense of the world using reason, experience and shared human values and that we can live good lives without religious or superstitious beliefs.
Isn't tolerance of other's beliefs a shared human value?

Absolutley - as long as those values are that of respecting women as equals, not abusing children by the use of physical violence, sexual and pyschological abuse, not discriminating on the grounds of someones innate sexual orientation, colour of a person's skin or their ethnicity, treating people fairly, also that these values are based on fact not myth.

No !!! it's ok to force your women to walk three paces behind you and prevent them obtaining a worth while education !! (better to have an arranged marigge) and before you ask i personaly know some young muslim girls this has happened to they were forcefully removed from school (6 form) and didn't like it at all ,,,, and it's ok to make them cover up for the sake of male dominence !!

You really are a prat axeman! I have Muslim frieinds, and I can tell you for sure that Islam does not allow forced marriages! As for women walking 3 paces behind men - this is also alien to the religion. I don't know where you get your info from, but you need to speak to an actual muslim and you will see that Islam insists on educating men and women equally and that women should be treated with respect and love by their husbands and male relatives.

' honour killings ' , if removing your child from school (against there will ) to have an arranged marrige isn't forceful ? and do they walk behind their men folk just because they are slower ? i suppose i only see this as an apparition it's not happening when i see a muslim family out it only looks as if the woman is behind the man :wink...............

Is't that why under the taliban and other muslim regimes education for women is seen as unimportant

[andy2007]

I have read this thread with a great deal of interest. As a humanist, secularist and atheist (I just get holidays and get no choice about the Xmas or Easter ones lol!!) I have an issue with people taking time off for religious days – (I don’t have a problem with holidays) but where will it end …. If I believed Elvis was still alive (There are people out there who do believe this!) and I went to my DOM and asked him for a day off to watch a few DVD’s to celebrate his life or death, quite rightly the DOM could and would p*** him self laughing. If people are religious then surely it should be personal and remain within their personal time and their religion should not determine working practise. Let’s separate the workplace from religion as if we start to try to accommodate all the religious holidays I’ll not be able to pick my holidays, as I will be covering for all those who are off!!

If there was a recognised religion, believing that Elvis was alive. Then yes, you should be able to ask for time off, for Religious festivals. But I somehow doubt that such a Religion exists. But I do see your point.

I suppose what it comes down to, is if one Religion is occomodated, then all should be. And also, please bear in mind, that Religion is a VERY important part of many people's lives. It's not a case of people wanting a day off, to put their feet up. There are important rituals, they feel the need to observe. And they can't do that, whilst working.

[andy2007]

"Humanism is the view that we can make sense of the world using reason, experience and shared human values and that we can live good lives without religious or superstitious beliefs.
Isn't tolerance of other's beliefs a shared human value?

Absolutley - as long as those values are that of respecting women as equals, not abusing children by the use of physical violence, sexual and pyschological abuse, not discriminating on the grounds of someones innate sexual orientation, colour of a person's skin or their ethnicity, treating people fairly, also that these values are based on fact not myth.

No !!! it's ok to force your women to walk three paces behind you and prevent them obtaining a worth while education !! (better to have an arranged marigge) and before you ask i personaly know some young muslim girls this has happened to they were forcefully removed from school (6 form) and didn't like it at all ,,,, and it's ok to make them cover up for the sake of male dominence !!

You really are a prat axeman! I have Muslim frieinds, and I can tell you for sure that Islam does not allow forced marriages! As for women walking 3 paces behind men - this is also alien to the religion. I don't know where you get your info from, but you need to speak to an actual muslim and you will see that Islam insists on educating men and women equally and that women should be treated with respect and love by their husbands and male relatives.

' honour killings ' , if removing your child from school (against there will ) to have an arranged marrige isn't forceful ? and do they walk behind their men folk just because they are slower ? i suppose i only see this as an apparition it's not happening when i see a muslim family out it only looks as if the woman is behind the man :wink...............

Is't that why under the taliban and other muslim regimes education for women is seen as unimportant

That's their Culture, NOT their Religion. Where in the Curan, does it tell them to behave that way?
Also, remember that Jews were often forced into arranged Marriages. Are you suggesting that they should be treated, as the Muslims often are, these days?

[TrueBlueTerrier]

' honour killings ' , if removing your child from school (against there will ) to have an arranged marrige isn't forceful ? and do they walk behind their men folk just because they are slower ? i suppose i only see this as an apparition it's not happening when i see a muslim family out it only looks as if the woman is behind the man :wink...............

Is't that why under the taliban and other muslim regimes education for women is seen as unimportant

But all of the things you mention are personal choice where the individual is at fault, or the teachings of a particular cult are. The religion/faith itself is not to blame just the particular interpretation.

Individual Christian Fundamentalists in America have killed Abortionists - does that mean all Christians are murderers.

A sect of Christian fundamentalists believe -

"democracy is the cause of all world problems...humans are under the law of God, and thus they CANNOT do anything they want or speak anything they wish to speak...democracy ultimately started with Satan...we can't rule ourselves. God must rule us...those who actually set up America, and drew up the laws were people who did not favor Christianity. Christians living during that time disagreed with those in power or rather the founding fathers. They saw them as ultra liberals, and of course, they were."

- are all Christians are against Democracy.

Evangelical Christians in South Asia practice "arranged marriages" - do all Christians force their children to marry within their faith.

[ramone]

I have read this thread with a great deal of interest. As a humanist, secularist and atheist (I just get holidays and get no choice about the Xmas or Easter ones lol!!) I have an issue with people taking time off for religious days – (I don’t have a problem with holidays) but where will it end …. If I believed Elvis was still alive (There are people out there who do believe this!) and I went to my DOM and asked him for a day off to watch a few DVD’s to celebrate his life or death, quite rightly the DOM could and would p*** him self laughing. If people are religious then surely it should be personal and remain within their personal time and their religion should not determine working practise. Let’s separate the workplace from religion as if we start to try to accommodate all the religious holidays I’ll not be able to pick my holidays, as I will be covering for all those who are off!!

If there was a recognised religion, believing that Elvis was alive. Then yes, you should be able to ask for time off, for Religious festivals. But I somehow doubt that such a Religion exists. But I do see your point.

I suppose what it comes down to, is if one Religion is occomodated, then all should be. And also, please bear in mind, that Religion is a VERY important part of many people's lives. It's not a case of people wanting a day off, to put their feet up. There are important rituals, they feel the need to observe. And they can't do that, whilst working.

Instead of accomodating all religions lets separate religion from the workplace and have none. My better half work's xmas day (has done for a number of years) if she suddenly discovered religion and decided that day off was a priority to her for religious beliefs the impact on other people would be great, (especially on her work colleagues and patients) Religion maybe important to people but I always thought religion was personal and should not affect those of different beliefs or no beliefs.
As for religions recognised that we as unbelievers have to "respect" do we include all those on this list - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_re ... traditions" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; all of these are recognised.

"Respect" should go both ways - One man's rights is an other man's loss of rights

PS Xmas Day and Good friday might have started out as "religious" holidays but they are now classed as bank holidays not "religious" holidays see http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Governmentc ... /DG_073741" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[stokes11eg]

We all have different beliefs in our house, and get on well! My kids were given the right to believe or not believe, and follow the path that feels right for them--
but we all share Christmas!

[ramone]

We all have different beliefs in our house, and get on well! My kids were given the right to believe or not believe, and follow the path that feels right for them--
but we all share Christmas!

Great to hear that you treat your kids in that manner - However, many children have no choice and the religion they have is not their choice but is the religion of their parents. We are now seeing the growth of faith schools in this country which I believe will lead to a greater segregation of our society due to religious beliefs. I am afriad as a society we have become afraid to challange the religious community of this country on their beliefs as it is seen as "politically" sensitive. Yet if a person spouts off from a political perspective (whether from the right or left) about an issue we have no problem in taking them to task. Look at the recent visit of the pope - the man is responsible for the covering up of the sex abuse of children see his rap sheet - http://www.protest-the-pope.org.uk/mr-r ... ap-sheet/-" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; our fawning media and government did nothing! I have no problem if people believe in religion as long as its personal (They keep it to themselves)

[stokes11eg]

Yes, I agree mostly with what you say! Going back to my childhood and the area I lived in, there was a clear divide between the two main religions, but, we tolerated each other and
indulged in good natured banter---hopefully, as we become even more religiously diverse, somewhere along the line, that tolerance will come to the fore again, and even more hopefully, the incomers will respect our religious beliefs as we are made ro respect theirs!