British postal union seeks to deliver management’s agenda

[axeman]

And thats what royal fail expects it's '''managers''' to do shi* and breathe royal fail 24x7 and in the spare time bow and pay homage to your leader ...eh tman

[borders]

is belonging to a Union , not Collectivism ? solidarity amongst workers to improve our conditions ? if that is not the case , the chap from WSW has a point ? you seem to defend the Union on the one side but then claim Collectivism is a flawed concept ?

Depends just how far you wish to take the inclusivity of that Collectivism, but thankfully membership of the CWU doesn't extend into any areas of my life other than work.
True Collectivism in it's purest form would require committment in every aspect of your life to function as it should, and what right-minded individual would want that? Many people have started wars and revolutions to decrease state involvement in thier lives.......

nice answer , you never fail to disappoint !! considering we spend a third of the day at work and it provides me with the means to exsist , being a member of the Union is very important to me , kinda like my extended family . sounds to me you just like to take...

[stage3]

By claiming that my article is 'anti-union propaganda', Tman resorts to distorting the truth. This is because he cannot answer the main contention - that it is the CWU which fails to act as a union in the way it has been traditionally understood by workers.

But that's your/WSWS's assertion; I don't see it that way, and presumably neither do thousands of it's members. All I can see is some bunch criticising a genuine worker's union, which is ironic given the alleged stance of any party with "socialist" in it's name.
The point remains then; the benefits achieved by the CWU etc over the years vs the benefits (any?) achieved by your chosen party. How long does any one need to think about that one?


Incidentally, my point isn't against socialism as such ( a pretty sound idea when conceived, but mostly ignored today) but all the little groups who like to contain the "S" word in the title, as if that somehow confers status or gains respect.
Achieve nothing, do nothing, talk a lot. My local union rep does more for the "workers" than any of those parasites....

Parody at it's best...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gb_qHP7V ... re=related" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Tman is not interested in a genuine debate. He has had several chances. He just wants to muddy the waters. He conveniently omits the sentences that preceded and followed the one he quotes from me.These referred to the destruction of 60,000 jobs in the post and the CWU's political support for Labour, a government of strikebreakers. While he claims to be the spokesman for ordinary postal workers his silence on this denotes indifference.This is because he is trying to defend the indefensible.

The modernisation program being pushed through by the government and RM represents change, but not progress. However, the CWU parrots the government and company line. In his latest update on the talks Dave Ward states, 'We must also recognise that our aspirations are set against the environment the business now operates within and the company's own objectives, which include the introducing of a standardised six day work plan.' The PEC have kept the membership in the dark for months and enforced the no strike agreement while management attacks continued. After claiming that the CWU had won important concessions as an excuse for calling off the strike, Dave Ward and the PEC are now softening up opinion for the bad news.

What is the 'environment' that Ward refers to, a naturally occuring phenomenon beyond the control of man, or the product of an economic system based upon definite social relations? The world economy has been brought to the brink by a financial elite that accumulates wealth not through the creation of any productive value, but outright speculation and swindling.The distinction between what is legal and illegal has been largely effaced. Governments the world over are now forcing upon their populations mass austerity measures because the public coffers have been raided to bail out the banks. The theft of the postal workers pensions and the massaging of the performance figures to justify further privatisation are of a piece with this. The position of the CWU is adaptation to the demands of management and government all the way down the line. The overriding concern of the CWU is to ensure its place at the negotiating table, bargaining away the conditions of postal workers.

Tman clearly does not understand socialism. How can something be a 'pretty sound idea' but 'unworkable in practice''? Socialism is not based upon a primitive form of economic development but represents a higher stage of society than capitalism. By raising the level of productivity, capitalism creates abundance and with it the preconditions to satisfy all human needs. However, in private hands the development of productive technique is used to maximise exploitation and produces greater social inequality. At the same time we are living through an unprecedented integration of world economy but this remains divided between rival nation state powers which threaten its destruction through protectionism and war. Those examples of socialism that have been held up as examples as to why it is unviable are ones that have emptied socialism of its international content. They identified it with a national project (Stalinism) or national reforms (Labour). Internationalism is the cornerstone of socialism.

I will cite one example of the type of lead being taken up by the WSWS and the political tendency it represents. The organisation of workers in Sri Lanka in the Balmoral Estate Action Committee. This is a step forward that provides an example to workers internationally http://www.wsws.org/articles/2009/sep20 ... -s22.shtml" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Tman]

nice answer , you never fail to disappoint !! considering we spend a third of the day at work and it provides me with the means to exsist , being a member of the Union is very important to me , kinda like my extended family . sounds to me you just like to take...

Not a nice answer. Just when I think your level of debate could possibly rise above the personal, well, you never fail to disappoint either.
I answered your point re "isn't union membership a form of collectivism" and you somewhat strangely took that as some form of attack on the union. Maybe you could explain why you saw it like that?
{Funny how that happened after a post by "A N Other" though --- maybe that's another good example of collectivism, eh? Baaa baaa}

[Tman]

Tman is not interested in a genuine debate.

Yeah, that's always a good comeback when you have no answers.

He has had several chances. He just wants to muddy the waters. He conveniently omits the sentences that preceded and followed the one he quotes from me.These referred to the destruction of 60,000 jobs in the post and the CWU's political support for Labour, a government of strikebreakers.

That's the same old cliche'd and over-simplistic reasoning as used many times by the Socialist this-that-and-the-other Party, so how about a breakdown of where those 60,000 jobs were? Do you know where they were?

While he claims to be the spokesman for ordinary postal workers his silence on this denotes indifference.This is because he is trying to defend the indefensible.

I don't think I've claimed to be a spokesperson for ordinary postal workers or anybody else, but if you can show me where I've said or even implied that, I'll happily send TBT £100 to pass on to your party's funds. If you can't, then I'll expect you to do the same for Haiti relief.

I await your response....

[stage3]

But that's your/WSWS's assertion; I don't see it that way, and presumably neither do thousands of it's members.

Just one example of you setting yourself up as the spokesperson for ordinary postal workers. Your comments are full of such presumptions and that is why you cannot develop your argument. Constant references to the 'average RM worker' or 'average Joe' which supposedly chime with your views. On the other hand you parody the WSWS as three men and their dog. Very original and apparently not cliches.

If the intepretation of being 'over simplistic' or 'cliched' is having a consistent argument - backed up with facts - then I plead guilty.

[Tman]

But that's your/WSWS's assertion; I don't see it that way, and presumably neither do thousands of it's members.

Just one example of you setting yourself up as the spokesperson for ordinary postal workers.

Thousands of RM workers are in the CWU, but I'm guessing thousands of RM workers aren't in the WS**, (and the word "presumably" was rather important here.. ) so, given the context of what was written, hardly "a spokesperson" but more a point "attempted" to be made.

If that's the best you can point out, I hope you have that hundred quid ready to go....

[stage3]

But that's your/WSWS's assertion; I don't see it that way, and presumably neither do thousands of it's members.

Just one example of you setting yourself up as the spokesperson for ordinary postal workers.

Thousands of RM workers are in the CWU, but I'm guessing thousands of RM workers aren't in the WS**, (and the word "presumably" was rather important here.. ) so, given the context of what was written, hardly "a spokesperson" but more a point "attempted" to be made.

If that's the best you can point out, I hope you have that hundred quid ready to go....

So because there are thousands in the CWU they all agree with you Tman. Presumptions, presumptions......

[Tman]

So because there are thousands in the CWU they all agree with you Tman. Presumptions, presumptions......

This is hard work (and that's most likely intentional too..)

The point was in response to the title and gist the original post, namely "British postal union seeks to deliver management's agenda" and was basically that as there are many thousands of RM workers in the CWU then "presumably" they see the CWU (for it's many faults) as being more useful than some other organisation with WS in it's title.

I don't see any claim that the thousands in the CWU agree with me at all, so nothing to rebut there, but it says little for any point you may feel you have to make if you're going to descend into semantics, evasion and repetition as rebuttals.

Hundred quid ready yet?

[TrueBlueTerrier]

The modernisation program being pushed through by the government and RM represents change, but not progress.

Best description I have seen.