SWP distort the truth

[kill Joy]

A colleague recently pointed out an article on the back of Socialist Worker dated 17 November. I have no problems with such organisations or there papers but wot I have a problem with is when they spin the facts so far away from the truth they become lies. I think it is one thing rank and file members puttin there interpretation which isnt necessarily fact but a view. But one thing I expect of a left wing party is to tell the TRUTH.

Here is my point

The article talks as if longs and shorts and 30 mins flexibility are at the discretion of RM.

It also says "the introduction of annualised hours will dramatically alter the way our duties are structured."

"Monthly pay is to be introduced in April 2008".

It gives this information as if they are a fact, as if the union will have no say. To me it's as if they've picked up an old proposal where management demanded we gave away these things.

The facts are we have agreed to discuss these issues with no comittment. I even heard Ward say at a briefing in London that we would get a seperate vote on monthly pay. No one is goin to give this away for nothing.

My fear is that the analysis from the SWP and others will only serve to demoralise workers and undermine there resolve to continue the fight. This should not be the role of a revolutionary or any other socialist in my view. by all means give a view and even make suggestions but do not mislead people - that is inexcusable.

[Lounge Lizard]

But Socialist Worker is only read by a few dozen 'loony lefties' now ! It doesn't enjoy the circulation it had in the 70s.

[axeman]

if it's a yes vote we'll see how far away from the truth this is especialy at the weaker offices !!

[BELIAL]

A colleague recently pointed out an article on the back of Socialist Worker dated 17 November. I have no problems with such organisations or there papers but wot I have a problem with is when they spin the facts so far away from the truth they become lies. I think it is one thing rank and file members puttin there interpretation which isnt necessarily fact but a view. But one thing I expect of a left wing party is to tell the TRUTH.

Here is my point

The article talks as if longs and shorts and 30 mins flexibility are at the discretion of RM.

It also says "the introduction of annualised hours will dramatically alter the way our duties are structured."

"Monthly pay is to be introduced in April 2008".

It gives this information as if they are a fact, as if the union will have no say. To me it's as if they've picked up an old proposal where management demanded we gave away these things.

The facts are we have agreed to discuss these issues with no comittment. I even heard Ward say at a briefing in London that we would get a seperate vote on monthly pay. No one is goin to give this away for nothing.

My fear is that the analysis from the SWP and others will only serve to demoralise workers and undermine there resolve to continue the fight. This should not be the role of a revolutionary or any other socialist in my view. by all means give a view and even make suggestions but do not mislead people - that is inexcusable.

Are you for real ? Even if it was all spin the SWP would still be the baby spinsters in Spin THeme Park ." Outrageous behaviour by the lefties just not cricket ,never catch us good old boys dabbling in such nefarious practices"
As good old Twoman would say in finest Frankie Howard style OOOh please spare us your sooo misplaced righteous indignation

[TrueBlueTerrier]

But one thing I expect of a left wing party is to tell the TRUTH.

Here is my point

The article talks as if longs and shorts and 30 mins flexibility are at the discretion of RM.

It also says "the introduction of annualised hours will dramatically alter the way our duties are structured."

"Monthly pay is to be introduced in April 2008".

It gives this information as if they are a fact, as if the union will have no say. To me it's as if they've picked up an old proposal where management demanded we gave away these things.

The facts are we have agreed to discuss these issues with no comittment. I even heard Ward say at a briefing in London that we would get a seperate vote on monthly pay. No one is goin to give this away for nothing.

My fear is that the analysis from the SWP and others will only serve to demoralise workers and undermine there resolve to continue the fight. This should not be the role of a revolutionary or any other socialist in my view. by all means give a view and even make suggestions but do not mislead people - that is inexcusable.

Just a few points my comments match your comments by colour.

At my DO Longs and Shorts are already in and the 30 minute flexibility appears as though it will be enforced over Christmas.

Annualised hours will dramatically alter the way our duties are structured thats commen sense as if they were not changed whats the point of having annualised hours

Ok they missed a bit here - namely - Royal Mail would like Monthly pay to be introduced in April 2008 - but their error was only in semantics.


I would like to add at this point that my Politics are very eclectic just like my music I have no affiliations with any Political party but can see the benefit and pitfalls in most political approaches and ideologies.

[k979aaa]

But one thing I expect of a left wing party is to tell the TRUTH.

Here is my point

The article talks as if longs and shorts and 30 mins flexibility are at the discretion of RM.

It also says "the introduction of annualised hours will dramatically alter the way our duties are structured."

"Monthly pay is to be introduced in April 2008".

It gives this information as if they are a fact, as if the union will have no say. To me it's as if they've picked up an old proposal where management demanded we gave away these things.

The facts are we have agreed to discuss these issues with no comittment. I even heard Ward say at a briefing in London that we would get a seperate vote on monthly pay. No one is goin to give this away for nothing.

My fear is that the analysis from the SWP and others will only serve to demoralise workers and undermine there resolve to continue the fight. This should not be the role of a revolutionary or any other socialist in my view. by all means give a view and even make suggestions but do not mislead people - that is inexcusable.

Just a few points my comments match your comments by colour.

At my DO Longs and Shorts are already in and the 30 minute flexibility appears as though it will be enforced over Christmas.

Annualised hours will dramatically alter the way our duties are structured thats commen sense as if they were not changed whats the point of having annualised hours

Ok they missed a bit here - namely - Royal Mail would like Monthly pay to be introduced in April 2008 - but their error was only in semantics.


I would like to add at this point that my Politics are very eclectic just like my music I have no affiliations with any Political party but can see the benefit and pitfalls in most political approaches and ideologies.

For the unions did have a political arm it was called the labour party!. But it has sided with big business if we the people of this union cannot have a voice in parliament then we will loose!. But not just us but any indvidual and group who cannot and will not pay big business money to the party!. The party system should be abolished and state funding only allowed to represent the constituency only!. NO TO THE PARTY SYSTEM!.

[dvbuk55]

For the unions did have a political arm it was called the labour party!. But it has sided with big business if we the people of this union cannot have a voice in parliament then we will loose!. But not just us but any individual and group who cannot and will not pay big business money to the party!. The party system should be abolished and state funding only allowed to represent the constituency only!. NO TO THE PARTY SYSTEM!.

Maybe I'm missing something here but what does that mean?

But to get back to the original post by the SWP. I firmly believe that there is a good deal of truth in what they say - annualised hours and monthly pay actually go hand in hand - I can't see one without the other actually working - the time scale would be too short over one week - perhaps they will do it in two stages where weekly pay is paid and overtime payments are paid monthly, then all payments monthly with annualised hours.

As for KJ thinking that 30 mins and flexibility are going to be negotiated with the CWU - , there is no negotiation necessary when the union have agreed already that NO is not an option just because you don't want to.

[IWW Fellow Worker]

I would be opposed to state funding for that shower. Let those who are members of political parties fund them. I'm opposed to unions funding Labour when the vast majority of union members are not Labour Party members, and I'm opposed to businesses like Tesco making donations to the Tory Party from the profits they make from a mainly working class clientele who are obviously not members of that party. If people want such organisations in existance, then pay up or let them die out.

[k979aaa]

The reason we are in such a mess in this country is big buisness has to much say and the people do not. We join a union to represent our interest and put our case forward but our subscription's are not enough for the labour party!.To get back to the point big buisness will endevor to get the full (maxium) use of all staff all of the time. for the only difference between 1850 and 2007 is some think just because they own a house they are the new rich how wrong they are!. For our fore father's have fought for their and our right's and now people are just giveing them away with out a fight ,pension's , a right to a life outside work, to be treated with respect and decency the very thing big buisness does not want!. Now who will speek up for us for labour will not!.

[IWW Fellow Worker]

The reason we are in such a mess in this country is big buisness has to much say and the people do not. We join a union to represent our interest and put our case forward but our subscription's are not enough for the labour party!.To get back to the point big buisness will endevor to get the full (maxium) use of all staff all of the time. for the only difference between 1850 and 2007 is some think just because they own a house they are the new rich how wrong they are!. For our fore father's have fought for their and our right's and now people are just giveing them away with out a fight ,pension's , a right to a life outside work, to be treated with respect and decency the very thing big buisness does not want!. Now who will speek up for us for labour will not!.

A fine post brother!

[dvbuk55]

Well I suppose I must be one of the nouveau riche, though I have worked hard to get what I have - no that should be we have both worked hard to get what we have. I have to say that times have changed and with it the expectations of the tired and huddled masses. New Labour isn't the left wing unelectable beast of the past and the Unions aren't the spearhead of the working class anymore. I don't know what the answer is, well we all know what the anwer is but doing anything about it is another matter entirely.

[k979aaa]

Well I suppose I must be one of the nouveau riche, though I have worked hard to get what I have - no that should be we have both worked hard to get what we have. I have to say that times have changed and with it the expectations of the tired and huddled masses. New Labour isn't the left wing unelectable beast of the past and the Unions aren't the spearhead of the working class anymore. I don't know what the answer is, well we all know what the anwer is but doing anything about it is another matter entirely.

And good on you for i am not begrudgeing the masses but the one's at the top for they can taketh what ever they giveth just like turning a tap on and off.

[kill Joy]

A colleague recently pointed out an article on the back of Socialist Worker dated 17 November. I have no problems with such organisations or there papers but wot I have a problem with is when they spin the facts so far away from the truth they become lies. I think it is one thing rank and file members puttin there interpretation which isnt necessarily fact but a view. But one thing I expect of a left wing party is to tell the TRUTH.

Here is my point

The article talks as if longs and shorts and 30 mins flexibility are at the discretion of RM.

It also says "the introduction of annualised hours will dramatically alter the way our duties are structured."

"Monthly pay is to be introduced in April 2008".

It gives this information as if they are a fact, as if the union will have no say. To me it's as if they've picked up an old proposal where management demanded we gave away these things.

The facts are we have agreed to discuss these issues with no comittment. I even heard Ward say at a briefing in London that we would get a seperate vote on monthly pay. No one is goin to give this away for nothing.

My fear is that the analysis from the SWP and others will only serve to demoralise workers and undermine there resolve to continue the fight. This should not be the role of a revolutionary or any other socialist in my view. by all means give a view and even make suggestions but do not mislead people - that is inexcusable.

Are you for real ? Even if it was all spin the SWP would still be the baby spinsters in Spin THeme Park ." Outrageous behaviour by the lefties just not cricket ,never catch us good old boys dabbling in such nefarious practices"
As good old Twoman would say in finest Frankie Howard style OOOh please spare us your sooo misplaced righteous indignation

OOOH get you, you really are a wit, more ken dodd than frankie howard, think about it!!!

Real - me, you better believe it pal! I aint the one with my head fimly stuck in the sand. Only misplaced in your view cos clearly only your pious view counts.

Wot do you mean if it "was all spin" of course it is, oh and here's another quote from the same article: "The lesson is clear - we must be flexible when management demand it". This is not true and you well know it. This laungage from people who wish to lead a socialist revolution is frankly outrageous. So wots your point - it's ok to lie to workers, sorry those who do that are doomed to lead no one anywhere other than down the garden path.

What are the likes of you and the SWP going to do tomorrow when the vote is a definitive 'Yes' - cry foul, say the vote was rigged, blame ward and hayes. Wot are the same going to say when they find out most of the branches and workplaces where there was a recomendation to vote No, that they actualy voted Yes. I hope you in particular take a good look at yourself and wake up to the reality. Any road to socialism is going to be a long hard slog - you'll get no where misleading people.

So where do you go when your little world comes crashing down tomorrow my friend. Will you stay and fight or will you turn and run?

[IWW Fellow Worker]

So where do you go when your little world comes crashing down tomorrow my friend. Will you stay and fight or will you turn and run?

You sound positively ecstatic at the possibility that thousands of people will have worse working conditions than presently exist in Royal Mail.

[BELIAL]

A colleague recently pointed out an article on the back of Socialist Worker dated 17 November. I have no problems with such organisations or there papers but wot I have a problem with is when they spin the facts so far away from the truth they become lies. I think it is one thing rank and file members puttin there interpretation which isnt necessarily fact but a view. But one thing I expect of a left wing party is to tell the TRUTH.

Here is my point

The article talks as if longs and shorts and 30 mins flexibility are at the discretion of RM.

It also says "the introduction of annualised hours will dramatically alter the way our duties are structured."

"Monthly pay is to be introduced in April 2008".

It gives this information as if they are a fact, as if the union will have no say. To me it's as if they've picked up an old proposal where management demanded we gave away these things.

The facts are we have agreed to discuss these issues with no comittment. I even heard Ward say at a briefing in London that we would get a seperate vote on monthly pay. No one is goin to give this away for nothing.

My fear is that the analysis from the SWP and others will only serve to demoralise workers and undermine there resolve to continue the fight. This should not be the role of a revolutionary or any other socialist in my view. by all means give a view and even make suggestions but do not mislead people - that is inexcusable.

Are you for real ? Even if it was all spin the SWP would still be the baby spinsters in Spin THeme Park ." Outrageous behaviour by the lefties just not cricket ,never catch us good old boys dabbling in such nefarious practices"
As good old Twoman would say in finest Frankie Howard style OOOh please spare us your sooo misplaced righteous indignation

OOOH get you, you really are a wit, more ken dodd than frankie howard, think about it!!!

Real - me, you better believe it pal! I aint the one with my head fimly stuck in the sand. Only misplaced in your view cos clearly only your pious view counts.

Wot do you mean if it "was all spin" of course it is, oh and here's another quote from the same article: "The lesson is clear - we must be flexible when management demand it". This is not true and you well know it. This laungage from people who wish to lead a socialist revolution is frankly outrageous. So wots your point - it's ok to lie to workers, sorry those who do that are doomed to lead no one anywhere other than down the garden path.

What are the likes of you and the SWP going to do tomorrow when the vote is a definitive 'Yes' - cry foul, say the vote was rigged, blame ward and hayes. Wot are the same going to say when they find out most of the branches and workplaces where there was a recomendation to vote No, that they actualy voted Yes. I hope you in particular take a good look at yourself and wake up to the reality. Any road to socialism is going to be a long hard slog - you'll get no where misleading people.

So where do you go when your little world comes crashing down tomorrow my friend. Will you stay and fight or will you turn and run?

Ever so sorry .did I touch a nerve? You seem to be Babbling somewhat ,perhaps a touch rabid, try deep breathing or meditation.

" Not true,socialist revolution,lie,doomed,rigged,misleading"and I aint your "friend" scumbag , Its a crap industrial agreement not the end of the universe,Knob