let,s assume it,s a yes vote

davidessex · Post by **davidessex** » 09 Nov 2007, 17:01

the reason i post this topic is that virtually all of the comments are for a no vote. we know it could be a yes vote, but we have not debated what we can do from that point. all we have done so far is reassure each other " it,s a no from me". i would like to see some comments on how hayes/ward ect will respond if they get their yes vote. we will be in the minority ( no voters) if it get,s accepted, so who will listen to our points of view in the future. i will also have to sit down with management discussing flexibility that i disagree with on behalf of members who voted it in. should i stand down at that point? any thoughts anyone?

Post by **TrueBlueTerrier** » 09 Nov 2007, 17:25

Whether or not you should stand down should only be based on 2 factors:

1. Your own conscience.

2. Whether or not there is anyone who accepted the deal and is willing to take over.

In my mind a good rep would carry on unless he thought it would go against his conscience, even if he was against the decision as it will have been passed by a democratic majority decision.

Sounds as though a lot of reps will have a lot of thinking to do. Follow your own conscience and resign which could weaken the union, or working on an agreement which you may be fundamentally against, but want to get your members the best out of it. I don't envy you.

Post by **semacsorter** » 09 Nov 2007, 17:39

I will vote no but im afraid i must admit that i think the vote will be for a yes purely due to the fact that most are now fed up with it all because of lack of leadership and direction and also communication from above im afraid the empathy vote will be yes !! for those that bother to vote that is, i can see less than 50% responding !! which bassiccaly if you dont vote you vote yes!!

as for resigning well difficult glad its not my choice !! i can just hear your manager " well your guys voted for it ! "
leaves you up the creek but if you can just change one thing then it would of been worth it depends how much hazzle you can take. I wish you well

davidessex · Post by **davidessex** » 09 Nov 2007, 17:44

what i,m more bothered about seamacsorter, is the verbal crap that will spill forth from messrs hayes/ward, who will tell us how justified they were in ratifying this deal. and the effect that has on rep,s reputations who in an attempt to get decent local/area deals will be carrying out their ( hayes/ward) wishes.

Post by **semacsorter** » 09 Nov 2007, 17:58

Yes i can see where your comming from however not to paint to black a picture i think any deal local reps get will only be in line with what area managers want with reps under the threat of suspension etc. anyway for the words used in the agreement for negotition replace consultation i.e they will inform you what they want ! there will be loads of local area disputes with no national backing they will have divided us and therefore won !! Our branch as you know have recommended a no vote but my thoughts still say a yes will win. the first time an office takes unofficial A/I you reps will be out. for one reason or another in fact i wouldnt be surprised if the deal is yes shortly after you will find yourselves back suspended on some excuse for previous actions !!

BELIAL · Post by **BELIAL** » 09 Nov 2007, 18:30

Such an outcome would place you in an impossible position. Presumably you would have lobbied your members long and hard to ensure maximum support to resist these changes only to find yourself forced to collaborate with management/leadership in implementing these changes. Looks like credibility will take a nosedive as harsh reality hits.
Obviously the conditions for this democratic vote are being manipulated . Securing a yes vote seems to rely on a three pronged strategy based on apathy;fatigue,and gullability it may succeed.
If it does I don't think I will be alone in seeking alternative employment, add to this number those that remain but ditch the union out of frustration and a feeling of betrayal and you are left with such a weakened shell of a union that you probably won't have much negotiating to do. If a union fails to improve conditions for it's membership, or worse works alongside management to ensure a decline in those conditions, it would defy logic for members to continue to invest in that union. It simply does not make sense to fund an organisation that acts against your self interests.
As for a union comeback in the event of a yes vote ,well the generals have defected taking the ammunition and a lot of it's troops will desert so it looks like total defeat and rapidly.

davidessex · Post by **davidessex** » 09 Nov 2007, 18:58

perhaps the 8 days of IA were the UNIONS way of softening us up for a yes vote, not RM,s. in which case, remember it for the future.... and they can see what it,s like having no credibility when thy next ask us to strike.

mailman71 · Post by **mailman71** » 09 Nov 2007, 19:37

if it is a yes vote then we just have to get on with it,for over 36 years i have followed the union on everything now on this i am voting against them but if the majority of the membership votes yes then we have to accept it.

leelatic · Post by **leelatic** » 09 Nov 2007, 20:03

I am a rep and I am going to have a hard time helping to bring in something virtually the whole office is against.The problem with the deal I have (amongst alot of other things)Is that its based on trust & 13 years of RM tells me you cant trust them.I am confident I could get a half decent deal,under the circumstances, with our dom but I'm equally confident that the area manager will step in and say no just like they did with the office savings.
I am so angry I feel like giving up the rep job than have anything to do with anything our office is dead against but then again nobody else will step up and do it if I quit.

BELIAL · Post by **BELIAL** » 09 Nov 2007, 20:34

leelatic wrote:I am a rep and I am going to have a hard time helping to bring in something virtually the whole office is against.The problem with the deal I have (amongst alot of other things)Is that its based on trust & 13 years of RM tells me you cant trust them.I am confident I could get a half decent deal,under the circumstances, with our dom but I'm equally confident that the area manager will step in and say no just like they did with the office savings.
I am so angry I feel like giving up the rep job than have anything to do with anything our office is dead against but then again nobody else will step up and do it if I quit.

You have my sympathy for what it's worth. Even if you do reach an acceptable local deal with your dom and maybe the area manager let's it pass ,you and I both Know it won't be long before both are out on their ears an you get hit with executive action.
Make no mistake ,this abandonment of national agreements will sign the death warrant of the union.

Stop the press , Aberdovey DO begins all out strike. Big Deal, RM rocked, public outcry, ministers convene.... Nahh , sorry Aberdovey could have been Peacehaven

leelatic · Post by **leelatic** » 09 Nov 2007, 20:47

Your right mate,the deal breaks up our strength.I work in a small DO and nobody is going to care if we come out officially or unofficially.

Post by **semacsorter** » 09 Nov 2007, 21:06

BELIAL wrote:Such an outcome would place you in an impossible position. Presumably you would have lobbied your members long and hard to ensure maximum support to resist these changes only to find yourself forced to collaborate with management/leadership in implementing these changes. Looks like credibility will take a nosedive as harsh reality hits.
Obviously the conditions for this democratic vote are being manipulated . Securing a yes vote seems to rely on a three pronged strategy based on apathy;fatigue,and gullability it may succeed.
If it does I don't think I will be alone in seeking alternative employment, add to this number those that remain but ditch the union out of frustration and a feeling of betrayal and you are left with such a weakened shell of a union that you probably won't have much negotiating to do. If a union fails to improve conditions for it's membership, or worse works alongside management to ensure a decline in those conditions, it would defy logic for members to continue to invest in that union. It simply does not make sense to fund an organisation that acts against your self interests.
As for a union comeback in the event of a yes vote ,well the generals have defected taking the ammunition and a lot of it's troops will desert so it looks like total defeat and rapidly.

well written

BELIAL · Post by **BELIAL** » 09 Nov 2007, 21:58

Oh ta , Imight like others now enter semi retirement and try to convince you all of the benefits of the agreement.

Nah ,it's s**t an your shafted.

Not eloquent ,not prosaic or poetical but spot on the truth, Tell me different, I've an open mind: But you can't can you

Post by **pcb** » 10 Nov 2007, 08:31

We as Reps represent the members, if they believe that the deal is a good one and you have had the arguement with them, then I'm afraid that what democracy is all about. If you resign your position as a Rep you will be leaving your members wide open to wholescale exploitation, you must stay and fight the good fight. The members will come to regret their decision if they vote YES, but we Reps need to be there. It was the same for the Way Forward Agreement. I hope that those Reps on the workfloor who are thinking of resigning stand back and imagine what it would be like without union cover. Agreements come and go, PRINCIPLES LAST FOR LIFE! NO PASSARAN!

mailsort6 · Post by **mailsort6** » 10 Nov 2007, 10:18

If your MC or DO is a office where management and the union gets on, a yes vote will be good. However, if you work in a MC or DO and the management and union don't get on, a yes vote will be bad news. I will be voting no because the management and union do not have a good relationship at my office. Agreements at local level are just open to abuse and this will only lead to unoffical action within the UK, do posties want this? National agreements are the best, local agreements will alllow RM to move the goal post all the time.

ROYALMAILCHAT

let,s assume it,s a yes vote

let,s assume it,s a yes vote

vote

Deal's