Grievance over unpaid overtime

[cookiewise]

Just going into my 11th week at RM. I have OT arrears which today DOM refused to pay, refused to discuss further and "take out a grievance".
Is that right? Really?
If so, I am assuming since the grievance is about/against the DOM it would need to be a Stage 2 and be directed to the DOM's line manager. Is that correct?
This DOM has been expecting my to work for free. He refuses to pay me overtime but won't permit me to cut off when I reach my contracted hours - "Perfomance matter"

My union rep was in with me for this short meeting.

Is it really normal practice to need to go down the grievance route for 15hours OT arrears? Is that not a bit ridiculous?

The way I'm feeling now it would be best if he just sack me. That way I only give a week's notice. If I resign I need to stay there a further four weeks and tbh I really don't want any more of this upset. He's also changed my hours to an 8.30am start, claiming I was coming in at 8 by choice. Eh, no, you told me twice I was to start at 8am. RM management is a total farce.

[TrueBlueTerrier]

Yes.

If you want to take this to an Employment tribunal for non-payment of overtime then you need to exhaust the internal processes. If you are then you will need to contact ACAS or get the rep advice on how to progress it further.

You may also wish to talk to someone who is competent in employment law about illegal deduction of wages, but as there is no legal right to be paid overtime, and although we have a contract and custom and practice that you are, it could be quite complicated.

[cookiewise]

Hi TBT and thanks for the reply.
It was the union rep who this morning gave DOM option to discuss the OT or to advise me to take out a grievance. He chose the latter. He said the OT was not authorised as wasn't cleared with him in advance. On these occasions he has either been out of the office, on the phone or otherwise engaged and thus unapproachable. The times I have called the DO to advise going over there has been no reply. One of the times I advised him I was going to go over time he said I was imagining it. The other time he complained I was taking too long tieing up, I was taking too long on delivery "others can do it faster" etc etc. He has intentionally made it difficult and discouraged me from trying to rightly claim payment for time worked.

I have never taken out a grievance before and need a wee bit of guidance. Is it a stage 2? Is there a form? If so, where can I get it? Can I do all of this myself? Will there be a hearing?
Why are you talking about tribunals? Surely that only happens way further down the line.

All senior staff, the H&S officer and Union officials have said "you'll get paid". So why should I need to put up such a fight? It just seems ridiculous - especially since you now say this is the norm. I have 35 years work experience and RM is without doubt the most shambolic and unfair working environment I have ever encountered. A place where you get told off for talking to colleagues. I want paid my overtime and then I want to leave.

[TrueBlueTerrier]

Grievance forms are in downloads - as are guides. However the forms are really just a guide, you can draw up your own letter of grievance if you prefer.

ETs you need to start that process 3 months from the issue that caused the grievance otherwise they won't hear it (Law). If you do go down that nuclear option then registering with ACAS, as far as I know, stops the clock and starts the procedure. RM managers are known to try and delay matters so that ant tribunal will fail because of this rule.

You probably won't need to go for an ET, but at least you know the basics if you decide to go that route.

It will be a stage 2 as it's about your manager - it will go to his manager.

The reps are right you will probably get paid, as usual, this arse of a manager is trying to find out how far he can push you, push back at the lowlife.

You are right about RM management. I have been a PA, a pay clerk, a Personnel/HR clerk (and supervisor for all 3 positions) and a Manager and Royal Mail is by far and above the worst style of management EVER. Poorly trained, bullied from above, an inability to organise, no leadership skills and a command and control ethos makes for a badly motivated workforce with low morale, which makes change and modernisation difficult and protracted. But this isn't news 2 reports from noted luminaries such as Richard Hooper CBE and Lord Sawyer said much the same thing

Lord Sawyer: http://www.ocp.co.uk/DocFrame/docView.a ... 5&secid=-1" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Front-line managers in Royal Mail have traditionally seen their role as authoritarian and purely directive, to tell employees what they are supposed to do and to keep constant checks to see that they are doing it. They have not been encouraged to see their role as involving the motivation of employees or coaching or supporting employees in order to develop their skills or initiative.

Richard Hooper http://www.bis.gov.uk/files/file49389.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Labour relations. The relationship between management and the
Communications Workers Union is extremely difficult.

[rambo1]

Don't give in to the barsteward. You should get you're estimated overtime forecast on the docket sheet before going out on delivery. Then when you get back, fill the correct timings in. Check next day that it's been signed off. We've been told to overestimate it as if you're later than you said you won't get it paid, unless you have a problem unforseen like van breakdown. Push for what you are owed.

[cookiewise]

DOM has been totally inconsistent with the OT and I was only advised of the rule of having to estimate running over time and getting prior approval on 28/09/18. The overtime worked predates this.
But nobody in the DO puts OT in the docket before they go out, it's always done after. From day 1 at the DO that's how I was shown to do it.

And being a newbie it can be difficult to know how long a run will take.
For example, today I thought I'd be over by an hour but it was only 40mins. So, if you estimate under your actual time when you hit the estimated time do you return to base with the undelivered stuff? Of course if I did that it would be a sackable offence.

I have completed the Stage 2 grievance form now. Am still furious that this would be necessary for such a small issue.

[number one]

Is this extended delivery overtime?

[hero22]

It’s ridiculous but common mate that a newbie like yourself is not given the full details so u can be taken advantage off. I recently put a grievance in for the same issue and it was rejected by the area manager and advised us to sort it out in office. Makes a farce of the grievance procedure. After that I was straight in, told Dom that I had give. U time to sort it now a solicitor was next step. Paid up the following week. My advice is to follow the grievance procedure then threaten the legal action.

It is unreal though that we have to do this to get paid.

[number one]

Call their bluff. Say to them that because you’re owed 15 hours you will take it as 2 days holiday. If they accept thos then they are admitting they owe it you. Also going forward go out of your way everyday to tell them you are going over even if your not. Then tell them the following morning if you did or not

[cookiewise]

I did think about taking it as holidays - three days it would be as I'm only on a 25hr contract. If I have three days off together I won't go back.
And every day me telling him I will likely go over will become a battle for my own sanity and self esteem simply because he uses this situation as an opportunity to tell me how slow I am.
I really hate working there now.

Grievance form completed. About to be emailed round the houses.
I am furious that I have wasted my afternoon (my valuable afternoon) completing this crap. Wish I'd never joined RM.
I love this forum though.

Can you believe being told off for talking? Worse than f*ckin school.
Thing is I'm not really a talker. He accused me of wandering around the DO talking to people - "I've witnessed it" he said when I challenged him.
Tosser? Or lovely chap? You decide.

[number one]

I did think about taking it as holidays - three days it would be as I'm only on a 25hr contract. If I have three days off together I won't go back.
And every day me telling him I will likely go over will become a battle for my own sanity and self esteem simply because he uses this situation as an opportunity to tell me how slow I am.
I really hate working there now.

Grievance form completed. About to be emailed round the houses.
I am furious that I have wasted my afternoon (my valuable afternoon) completing this crap. Wish I'd never joined RM.
I love this forum though.

Can you believe being told off for talking? Worse than f*ckin school.
Thing is I'm not really a talker. He accused me of wandering around the DO talking to people - "I've witnessed it" he said when I challenged him.
Tosser? Or lovely chap? You decide.

I really love managers like this, I usually tie them in knots. If he’s saying you have performance issues then asked him for some coaching/training. Ask him where you are going wrong (I don’t for one minute think you have any performance issues) As for not talking just ignore that unless he talks to you, before you say anything back to him just ask am I allowed to speak now?

[hero22]

Put in a bullying harassment complaint too. Love the job but the stress from management is ruining it.

[cookiewise]

number one

Brilliant! I do love your ability to not be fazed by these antics.
I keep forgetting to stand up for myself in the moment and always go away fuming. Of course I should ask him to provide some coaching / training. Show me how to tie up the "quick way" as I am so slow.

Do you know? I'm actually quite good at this job. I meet someone in the street now - I know their name, their address and if I have any mail for them that day. I love that connection. This could be a brilliant job. It really could. I could go home at night happy with myself instead of being angry and miserable.

When prepping the packets, I know who will be in; which parcels will fit through which letter boxes (never knew there could be such differences in their size!!). All this tacit knowledge of the area and the people and RM couldn't give a f*ck; they happily throw it all away by breaking good workers.

I can't wait to try out the "am I allowed to speak now" line.

hero22
The bullying / harassment will be going in later this week. I have a meeting Thursday with some senior union officials.

It's all so crazy. So much easier to be a decent human being and treat others properly. Why don't RM get it?

But tbh I do think my time with RM is drawing to an end. But if I can try and put right a few wrongs before I go it might make things better for others.

[number one]

A lot of DOMs don’t like the fact that us posties pretty much hold the Aces when it comes to a lot of things. They also take it personal when we tell them we want to work to our time. As soon as you tell them that thats when they start questioning your performance, it’s comical. What they need to remember though is if allstaff at his grade disappeared tomorrow then you would still have a job, if all staff at our grade disappeared tomorrow he wouldn’t.

[cookiewise]

Holding the aces?! number one

I think I have been dealt cards from a pack of "Donkey".

My DOM says I'm underperforming if I can't get all the mail delivered within my contracted time. Even on heavy days?!
He used to be a postie so must know he's talking BS a lot of the time.
When he's not there the place runs really well. In fact it seems a far happier place.

I've been busy this afternoon: completed and submitted the grievance AND got myself a nice wee extra job for the evenings which could lead to something more permanent.
Less hourly pay and less hours, but going home happy at the end of the day is so much more important.

Cannot believe the amount of my free time this job is consuming.