Ghost overtime

Mrunity · Post by **Mrunity** » 11 Apr 2017, 11:45

Last week in my office in WTL we were told if we do half a round on overtime which is normally 3 hrs we will only get paid the time we get back to the office not the full 3 hrs if we are back earlier.

This happening anywhere else?

number one · Post by **number one** » 11 Apr 2017, 11:55

If everybody refused to do it then you will soon get paid the 3hrs!

Post by **rambo1** » 11 Apr 2017, 13:04

number one wrote:If everybody refused to do it then you will soon get paid the 3hrs!

IF! Anyways why should you get 3 hrs if it takes you less? Would you only expect 3hrs if it took you more?

rubberbond · Post by **rubberbond** » 11 Apr 2017, 13:15

rambo1 wrote:
number one wrote:If everybody refused to do it then you will soon get paid the 3hrs!
IF! Anyways why should you get 3 hrs if it takes you less? Would you only expect 3hrs if it took you more?

As they say, the only thing you will ever make from Royal Mail, is time.

Acca Dacca · Post by **Acca Dacca** » 11 Apr 2017, 14:44

Its the only incentive given we don't get time and a half for OT

clashcityrocker · Post by **clashcityrocker** » 11 Apr 2017, 15:08

Acca Dacca wrote:Its the only incentive given we don't get time and a half for OT

We don't get time and a half because that is what the union agreed to.
I really have never understood why some people feel they can make up their own rules.
Do they make up their own conduct code? Their own time off for dependants agreement? Perhaps they negotiate their own pay rise?

And do they bleat the loudest when managers don't stick to national agreements?

steve1873 · Post by **steve1873** » 11 Apr 2017, 15:20

No but if a manager asks if you will do a bit on OT, then given the voluntary nature of OT, anyone is entitled to ask what they will be paid for doing so. If the individual feels that the offer is worth their while then they can accept it. If the manager wishes not to make an offer and just do it on a 'however long it takes' scenario, then he can move on to the next person, who will likely also refuse him.

Yes, in an ideal world ghost overtime would stop, but this isn't an ideal world. It is a world in which many DO's are grossly understaffed and under resourced and as such, if management wish to clear the mail then they have to make deals that are seen as worthwhile (by both parties).

Now, this is where it gets complicated - IF the s**t was to hit the fan and an individual was pulled up for a fraudulent OT claim, then you obviously aren't going to get the manager who made the deal throwing them-self on to that particular grenade, and even if so, I doubt it would help the postie in question - but only proceed to land them both in hot water. So it is vital that anyone doing OT on a "deal" basis is fully aware of the potential consequences and can make that informed decision. Perhaps the CWU should be taking the lead on this particular subject.

Post by **IloveMYredTROLLEY!** » 11 Apr 2017, 15:25

Given how management keep chasing savings that are often not really there if you do the job correctly, they should be made to put money where their mouth is and make overtime at least 1.5x standard rate i.e. ~£17 per hour.

Acca Dacca · Post by **Acca Dacca** » 11 Apr 2017, 15:45

steve1873 wrote:No but if a manager asks if you will do a bit on OT, then given the voluntary nature of OT, anyone is entitled to ask what they will be paid for doing so. If the individual feels that the offer is worth their while then they can accept it. If the manager wishes not to make an offer and just do it on a 'however long it takes' scenario, then he can move on to the next person, who will likely also refuse him.

Yes, in an ideal world ghost overtime would stop, but this isn't an ideal world. It is a world in which many DO's are grossly understaffed and under resourced and as such, if management wish to clear the mail then they have to make deals that are seen as worthwhile (by both parties).

Now, this is where it gets complicated - IF the s**t was to hit the fan and an individual was pulled up for a fraudulent OT claim, then you obviously aren't going to get the manager who made the deal throwing them-self on to that particular grenade, and even if so, I doubt it would help the postie in question - but only proceed to land them both in hot water. So it is vital that anyone doing OT on a "deal" basis is fully aware of the potential consequences and can make that informed decision. Perhaps the CWU should be taking the lead on this particular subject.

Exactly

For instance would it be worth £7 odds after tax to do an hours solid delivering in pouring rain when you are knackered after doing ur own? For most no.

Jpro747 · Post by **Jpro747** » 11 Apr 2017, 16:01

Mrunity wrote:Last week in my office in WTL we were told if we do half a round on overtime which is normally 3 hrs we will only get paid the time we get back to the office not the full 3 hrs if we are back earlier.

This happening anywhere else?

Don't rush round then, do the 3 hrs like you're meant to.

clashcityrocker · Post by **clashcityrocker** » 11 Apr 2017, 16:39

steve1873 wrote:No but if a manager asks if you will do a bit on OT, then given the voluntary nature of OT, anyone is entitled to ask what they will be paid for doing so. If the individual feels that the offer is worth their while then they can accept it. If the manager wishes not to make an offer and just do it on a 'however long it takes' scenario, then he can move on to the next person, who will likely also refuse him.

Yes, in an ideal world ghost overtime would stop, but this isn't an ideal world. It is a world in which many DO's are grossly understaffed and under resourced and as such, if management wish to clear the mail then they have to make deals that are seen as worthwhile (by both parties).

Now, this is where it gets complicated - IF the s**t was to hit the fan and an individual was pulled up for a fraudulent OT claim, then you obviously aren't going to get the manager who made the deal throwing them-self on to that particular grenade, and even if so, I doubt it would help the postie in question - but only proceed to land them both in hot water. So it is vital that anyone doing OT on a "deal" basis is fully aware of the potential consequences and can make that informed decision. Perhaps the CWU should be taking the lead on this particular subject.

So in reverse order:
The CWU have taken the lead. The overtime rates are clearly available for anyone who isn't sure.
Management have to clear the mail within the guidelines of national agreements. Some may well be leaving the business if they can't do that.
That is your opinion. But it is outside of nationally agreed guidelines. Is anyone entitled to ask to use their car to do their overtime? Is any manager allowed to authorise that - " to clear the mail"?

And of course if you sign a 552 that is fraudulent, your P45 may well be in the post.

clashcityrocker · Post by **clashcityrocker** » 11 Apr 2017, 17:04

And while I am at it......
Is it acceptable from a trade union perspective for some people to be on time and a quarter. some on time and a half, some on double time?
Because that is the only certain outcome of this rush to embrace laissez faire economics?
Perhaps the DOM should put up a list in the office of how much each person is worth? Would that be acceptable?

And isn't it actually illegal for people to be paid different rates for the same job?

citypostie · Post by **citypostie** » 11 Apr 2017, 17:34

I don't see how it's illegal to pay different rates for the same job. People with more experience often earn more while doing the same job as someone else. I'm sure all the 2nd division footballers would like to earn the same as the man city players. Maybe the top ghoster Postie's are the equivalent of the top premier league players and the rest of us are journeyman division 2 players

clashcityrocker · Post by **clashcityrocker** » 11 Apr 2017, 18:03

What is equal pay?
Equal pay is your entitlement to the same wage as someone doing work of equal value to you, the same or broadly similar work as you or work rated as “of equivalent value” by a job evaluation study.
This is often, but not exclusively, a gender issue. Women are sometimes paid less than men for doing the same work.

What if you are not being paid equally?
If you are not being paid equally, your employer is breaking the law.

I took the above from a UNISON website.
I am no legal expert (and I am happy to be corrected but my understanding then is if postie A covers a duty on overtime on Friday and is paid x for doing so and Postie B covers it on Saturday and because the manager is a bit desperate he offers 2x, then that is illegal. (unless there was twice as much work)
He could argue at a tribunal that postie B was the Messi of all posties and he was paying extra to secure his services and Postie A was like the bloke who cleans Matt Bloomfield's boots but I don't think that will fly.

Performance related pay next?

Martin Walsh · Post by **Martin Walsh** » 11 Apr 2017, 18:27

As a privatised company Royal Mail have a Team called the Audit and Risk committee ( ARC ) who go into offices to audit them on various issues. Part of this is that all paid for hours are worked including on belateds. Every DOM and DSM have access to the PDA actuals on their lap tops and know when someone is working beyond their time or overtime or have finished before their overtime.

I know of belateds of much more than 3 hours and Royal Mail under the guise of working all paid hours and having a minuimn legal 11 hour break between duties are stopping the amount being paid.

At the end of the day market forces are meaning some people are not willing to work on a belated or rest days for the hours being offered. The end result is more Agency staff who end up costing far more as they don't do tracked or PS and offer more quality of service or managers perform the deliveries and Royal Mail seem to ingnore the Working Time Directive for managers.

For years Delivery postal staff have been used to working a set amount of hours for a belated and rest days hourage. Royal Mail are now saying that we will no longer pay that hourage unless you are in line with the Working Time Directive or within your paid hours.

We are seeing more and Agency staff being used as some OPGs are no longer willing to work overtime for the hours being offered.