Seniority - Is it Logical?

franco1 · Post by **franco1** » 17 Mar 2016, 10:18

Here's a question that will surely set the cat amongst the pigeons.

Is seniority logical?

I ask this question because RM/CWU seem to be one of the few establishments left which still place such an emphasis on seniority.
Seniority seems to come into play with regards to - Officially - Allocation of walks and unofficially - Overtime and Holiday Entitlement.
Is this the most fair system to use?

Example -
Senior Postie A - Terrible disciplinary, attendance and punctuality record.
Junior Postie B - Excellent disciplinary, attendance and punctuality record.

A walk becomes vacant and is advertised.
Guess who gets it?
Is seniority still the most fair system?

Your thoughts please.

Post by **dvbuk55** » 17 Mar 2016, 10:36

Having been a member of this site for some years and having retired after 25 years aged 69 in my experience the only people who ask this question are those with no seniority and it's asked with alarming regularity time after time.

Pompey Boy · Post by **Pompey Boy** » 17 Mar 2016, 10:37

Yes it is outdated, but what would you replace it with?

mancpat · Post by **mancpat** » 17 Mar 2016, 11:06

I have no problems in my office with seniority as I am quite high up the list. So I have no hidden agenda here.

But seniority is outdated. This is one of the things that bring the business down. We have a lot of senior guys on particular walks that are kept nice and easy and they seem to think they have some devine right to as easy walk because of time served and because "we had to put up with s**t walks when we started!"

You didn't. It's around 16 years or so I've been in the job now and yes you may have got the worst walk in the office at the time but the walks were easy. So there's no comparison. It's not as though the hard yards have been done to get an easy life. We all had easy lives then and all have it tough now.

On the other side I've seen new guys come in and get s**t on time after time by the older guys trying to push bits on to their walk yet they are going home early while the newer guys are getting stressed about finishing on time and losing their jobs. Newer doesn't always mean younger either.

The more senior guys should be setting examples and helping less experienced colleagues but often see them as someone to s**t on just so they can get a flyer. Management then take the experienced guys word for it on such issues.

I will personally always try and help newer guys and will give a fair assessment of a walk whether it's mine or not because things can change in royal mail at any time. I remember one guy fought for years to get a bit taken off him and put on another walk. He finally got his way then we had a revision and somebody took his walk and he ended up with the tougher walk because of his own selfishness previously.

IcanthelpthewayIam · Post by **IcanthelpthewayIam** » 17 Mar 2016, 12:20

I wouldn't say it's the most fair system but I would say it is the most transparent system and that's the reason why I agree for its use where allowed,

if someone can show me an equally transparent system for deciding who gets jobs that can't be abused by managers to promote favourites then I will happily change my mind

deltaforce · Post by **deltaforce** » 17 Mar 2016, 12:46

As far as I'm aware walk lengths are designed by the planner and his software. I didn't think he built easy ones for our senior colleagues. Ps just for the record my delivery has over 600 calls goes over most days, and that's with well over 30 + years service. So seniority doesn't always buy you an easy meal ticket

franco1 · Post by **franco1** » 17 Mar 2016, 13:12

The point i was trying to make is not that seniority necessarily gets you an easy walk - although obviously having first say on a walk that you know through experience is easier than others achieves this.

What i am saying is that the allocation of duty walks is not based on performance - and perhaps it should be.
Management and Rep could sit and analyze all the applicants and assess their performance so the best man wins.

If all applicants are equally suitable with regards to performance, attendance etc, then by all means seniority should then play a part in the decision.

Sound fair?

IcanthelpthewayIam · Post by **IcanthelpthewayIam** » 17 Mar 2016, 13:46

franco1 wrote:The point i was trying to make is not that seniority necessarily gets you an easy walk - although obviously having first say on a walk that you know through experience is easier than others achieves this.

What i am saying is that the allocation of duty walks is not based on performance - and perhaps it should be.
Management and Rep could sit and analyze all the applicants and assess their performance so the best man wins.

If all applicants are equally suitable with regards to performance, attendance etc, then by all means seniority should then play a part in the decision.

Sound fair?

when the system of who is best is open to assessment by a manager as to whos performance is best then no that system would not be fair as it allows for favourable treatment by a manager for his mates or brown noses, even having a rep involved as some sort of checks and balances doesn't work as rep may not like people either or may be in managers pocket and as such no objective selection process would take place where as everyone knows exactly where they stand with seniority

Whysoslowyehcfc · Post by **Whysoslowyehcfc** » 17 Mar 2016, 14:20

franco1 wrote:The point i was trying to make is not that seniority necessarily gets you an easy walk - although obviously having first say on a walk that you know through experience is easier than others achieves this.

What i am saying is that the allocation of duty walks is not based on performance - and perhaps it should be.
Management and Rep could sit and analyze all the applicants and assess their performance so the best man wins.

If all applicants are equally suitable with regards to performance, attendance etc, then by all means seniority should then play a part in the decision.

Sound fair?

It's a lot fairer then letting management get involved, if you do the job properly, I.e - come in on time,cut off if you can't compete, do everything by the book, the mangers hate these people, as apposed to someone who comes in 40 minutes early, cuts corners and sucks upto the managers...
ROYAL MAIL WOULD LOVE TO GET RID OF SENIORITY...

franco1 · Post by **franco1** » 17 Mar 2016, 14:36

when the system of who is best is open to assessment by a manager as to whos performance is best then no that system would not be fair as it allows for favourable treatment by a manager for his mates or brown noses, even having a rep involved as some sort of checks and balances doesn't work as rep may not like people either or may be in managers pocket and as such no objective selection process would take place where as everyone knows exactly where they stand with seniority

Fair point - With corrupt decision makers comes corrupt decisions.

However in my opinion performance related can still be best so long as the decision makers are fair - perhaps the decision could be made by someone outside the office.

Whereas with seniority the decision is set in stone regardless of how deserving or undeserving the applicant may be.

With regards to being penalized and not being successful with the application for cutting off and generally trying to do the job by the book - again ideally this would not come into the equation as would be an issue that would have been resolved as soon as it came about - I know this is not realistic within the present RM climate.

So with no management favourites for being a runner or enemies for cutting off - a fair decision could be made based on performance rather than just seniority.
Also by performance i would emphasis attendance and punctuality.
Why reward someone who has taken loads of time off and is consistently late?

tansorboy · Post by **tansorboy** » 17 Mar 2016, 14:55

It's illegal.

slinder123 · Post by **slinder123** » 17 Mar 2016, 15:03

Pompey Boy wrote:Yes it is outdated, but what would you replace it with?

replace it with a diffrent walk each week so everyone learns all the walks and everyone gets the good and the bad equally that is the fairest system none of i dont know that walk bullshit that the lazy gits dont want to go near cause it proably is one of the harder walks

fishtank · Post by **fishtank** » 17 Mar 2016, 15:15

tansorboy wrote:It's illegal.

First of all you need to understand the difference between illegal and unlawful, secondly if you're going to throw in a blanket statement like that you really need to be able to back it up with some facts.

I'll start you off,

Question 1 Seniority is not illegal but it can be both lawfully and unlawfully applied.....

Give an example of each and show your working.

fishtank · Post by **fishtank** » 17 Mar 2016, 15:19

Seniority is a bit like parole, nobody is really sure if it should happen but if it didn't there would be far more bad behaviour inside.

DiamondSmiles · Post by **DiamondSmiles** » 17 Mar 2016, 15:28

Why shouldn't you get an easier walk if you have done lots of years. Trust me if you have done 30+ years, bits of your body are complaining loudly!