Advice appreciated

[Meesh_W]

Hi guys,
I'm a new postwoman who started in Nov 14 on a Saturday 7 hour trial contract. I have another job Mon to Fri working for the local council in a school canteen contracted for 25 hours term time. In February I noticed a painful lump appear in my abdomen just above my navel and was suffering from severe nausea etc. I was diagnosed with an abdominal hernia and gallstones which needed surgery asap due to the heavy nature of both my jobs. It was arranged for mid April and I fully informed both employers of what was to be expected. The surgeon, my GP and pre-op nurse all gave 8-10 weeks recovery due to having a double procedure and two manual jobs, which I made the employers aware of.
I gave in all certificates and had 10 weeks off in all on the advice of my occupational health advisor from my council job.
On my return to RM on 4th July I was invited to a back to work discussion which was friendly etc and I signed to say I'd had the meeting. I was asked if I was ok and I informed them I was on light duties at my other job on advice from OH until September. This was noted and agreed I should be on light duties in the office for the time being. The following Saturday, last week, I was approached by a line manager who asked me to go to his office in a hours time. I went there and was asked to sit down and was asked questions about why I was off work etc and did I realise the impact my absence had on the workforce? I thought this was a bit harsh as I had not been paid and I was on several occasions sent to an alternative office previously due to not being needed. I was told I'd need to sign the papers he'd print from 'my interview' but the printer wasn't working so I could do it next week when I come in. So on Saturday (last week) I was handed the papers and told where to sign and back date it (without reading it). When I showed my husband later he informed me that I'd been issued a stage one warning! At no point was I told this was a formal meeting to issue a warning nor that I could have someone with me. I had not been pre-invited as stated on the forms, nor had I sent back my reply...they were all given as one bundle at the same time. I
There were sentences on the papers that I was supposed to have said in the meeting which I did not and it was suggested there was a cause for concern regarding my sick record???
I realise I had only been working for them for a very short period but this surely cannot be a true representation of my sick record? I had not had any sick from my other job since 2010...that is my usual work attendance.
They have put me down as reaching the trigger level by having 70 days absent??? I am contracted to Saturday's only, I therefore only had 10 days absent. How can they include all other days when I would not even be available for work as I am contracted elsewhere for those days? Also, where was my informal discussion if there was a cause for concern?
I have now been told because I have signed the papers it cannot be appealed?
Does anybody have any advice please, or do you think I should accept it as fair?

Thanks for taking time to read and sorry for it being so long.

[raged1999]

No, there is no appeal against a stage 1 warning. You can put a grievance in due to procedures not being followed correctly. Please everybody, read this post and ALWAYS take someone in with you as a witness. Do put the grievance in, It will leave a paper trail that can be followed. There is no appeal against stage 1 or stage 2, that paper trail can become vital at a stage 3 (reasons to urge) meeting.

[sussexlad]

My small piece of advice is never ever sign anything before you have read it. That way if there is something you don't understand or you want advice about something then you can get it before you sign. If your DOM/Line Manager won't give you time to read it then just hand it straight back to him unsigned.

[Meesh_W]

Thanks for your replies guys,
I will take both your advice and put a grievance in writing to be attached to my warning and I will always remember from now on to NEVER sign anything unless I have studied it with a fine tooth comb!!

And there was gullible me thinking they were being nice!! :(

Thanks again :)

[swpostie]

Also, it's 70 days absent, rather than 10 days, as RM count CALENDAR days rather than WORKING days.

In the same way you wouldn't expect up to 30 days holiday, when you only work one day a week!

[Meesh_W]

No...I wouldn't expect 30 days holiday from working 1 day a week! I was shocked they offered me holiday days at all actually.
And that's because I'm a fair person like that!
As for WORKING & CALENDER days - I cannot be sick from two jobs on the same day? That is saying on the reverse I am available to work for RM mon-fri and available to work for the council on sat? This clearly is not the case and I have two contracts to prove that is incorrect.
I've worked my heavy manual kitchen job for 25 years and barely had time out sick - I work for RM for 3 months (over heavy Christmas period) discover I have a hernia (how do we know it didn't happen on the job) and have to undergo a painful operation and long recovery to end up with a warning!

Just to clarify my other job where I missed 5 days a week for 10 weeks and got full pay have NOT put me on a trigger level warning.

[doob]

Unfortunately put u on a stage 1 warning if u meet the criteria for one no matter of the reason. It's a system a lot of people have a problem with but its just the way it is. If it ever gets to stage 3 you may have grounds for appeal etc but try not to take it personally or get angry, it's the same for everyone.

[IcanthelpthewayIam]

Look at it another way a ft member of staff triggers stage warning review for being off roughly for two weeks(give or take a day), you were off for 10 weeks that's nearly five times as long, you have not been treated anymore unfairly than any other member of staff with regards to absence days, a review should definately have been triggered

[Judgee]

RM hand out stage warnings like free sweets at a kids party. Look on the bright side, the rules have been amended recently so as long as you keep a good attendance for six months it gets wiped. Before, it used to take a year!

[Postie45]

Stage 1 warnings are issued usually everytime someone goes over the attendance standards. Of course you were genuinely sick and unable to work, but RM would argue that everyone who takes off time sick and goes over the standards were (or should be) genuinely sick as well. Of course people take advantage of this system as every absence is treated as genuine if the postman says he was sick, no matter how sick they were in reality.

[miles_peters]

stage 1 warnings. ive been there im sure many of us have. no matter the reason or evidence, no matter how impossible it was to work, or even if you was close to death, theyd still give you a stage 1 warning. don't let it get to you, I hope you are feeling better.

[Postal Postie II]

Most people have a stage one. If you ever get to 3 then protest it but otherwise I'd just ignore it.

[Meesh_W]

Thanks for all your replies,

I have stressed myself out somewhat about this as I have always been a conscientious and hard working employee who takes very little time out sick.
I have spent hours reading the attendance policy and attendance review guides etc and have come to realise that:

1. After a 'Back to work meeting' any further concerns should be discussed at an INFORMAL meeting PRIOR to the next stage of a FORMAL stage 1. - In my case this did not take place.

2. A stage 1 warning is NOT automatic and should be taken on the individual merits at the interviewers discretion after taking into consideration any 'mitigating factors' - imminent hospitalisation and recovery times being a factor. A stage 1 DOES NOT therefore have to be issued just because you reached a trigger level! - In my case the decision to issue a warning was made without taking anything into consideration.

3. There is a strict PROCEDURE managers SHOULD follow but obviously DO NOT! ie. For a "Formal" - Stage meeting, a written request for you to attend should be given to you no less than 3 working days prior to the meeting and you should be offered the right to be accompanied by a Union Representative or any member of the Royal Mail Group. - All which in my case was not adhered to!

I have since joined the Union and armed myself with knowledge so I will not find myself in any such situation again.

Thanks again to those with kind words of advice and yes I'm getting better with time thankfully.

My turn to give advice now guys...

KNOW YOUR RIGHTS! READ THE POLICIES - DO NOT FALL VICTIM TO IGNORANCE!

Good luck to you all and happy reading lol xx

[Judgee]

2. A stage 1 warning is NOT automatic and should be taken on the individual merits at the interviewers discretion after taking into consideration any 'mitigating factors' - imminent hospitalisation and recovery times being a factor. A stage 1 DOES NOT therefore have to be issued just because you reached a trigger level! - In my case the decision to issue a warning was made without taking anything into consideration.

Never known any exceptions. People off in hospital having operations, etc all still got stages issued ?

Has anyone anywhere ever triggered a stage and not had it issued?

[Meesh_W]

Never known any exceptions. People off in hospital having operations, etc all still got stages issued ?

Has anyone anywhere ever triggered a stage and not had it issued?

National Attendance Agreement between Royal Mail Group and CWU 2013

Informal review discussion
Informal review discussions may take place at any time before the formal procedure where there is concern about an employee’s attendance. Within the formal procedure the manager may decide it is appropriate
to undertake additional informal review discussions. An employee may ask for such a discussion at any time.
The aim is to make the employee aware of the reason for concern, ensure that the employee is aware of the attendance standards and identify any steps that the employee or company may take to help produce an immediate and sustained improvement. In advising an employee of an imminent informal review discussion, managers will explain its purpose and give him or her sufficient time to prepare for it, including consulting their union representative. The manager will provide a copy of the employee’s attendance record at the meeting.
An informal review discussion might include consideration of:
• The causes, frequency, duration and pattern of absences
• Nature of work, shift system, recent changes to the demands of the job, work record and length of service
• Significant underlying health issues such as recent return from long term absence, recent or imminent hospitalisation, or problems at or outside work
• A reminder of the services of the Occupational Health Service and provision of contact numbers
• Action to be taken by the employee or the business including any rehabilitation measures, which might include retraining
• The prospects of improvement
• A reminder of the attendance standards
and potential implications of not meeting them.
The approach to the informal review discussion should be both sympathetic and supportive, and also clearly focused on achieving improvement and maintaining standards. The manager and the employee will jointly identify any support measures that may need to be considered.

Attendance review meetings
When, despite previous measures as described above, attendance does not meet the required standards and taking individual circumstances into account, consideration will be given to arranging a formal meeting between the employee and their manager.
The purpose is to consider the overall attendance performance and any underlying causes. It aims to encourage employees to achieve the standard. If the manager decides that a formal meeting is unnecessary, the employee should be informed and reminded of the attendance standards that are expected.

Employees may be accompanied at the formal meeting by the relevant union representative or a work colleague.

A minimum of three working days written notice will be provided, which will include a copy of the employee’s absence record, copy of any available Occupational Health reports and any other documentation which will form part of the decision making process.

Following the review meeting the manager will reflect before making a decision whether to issue a formal notification or not. Each case must be treated on its merits. Everything the employee has said by way of explanation for their attendance record must be taken into account along with the previous record, overall performance and reliability. The employee will be advised in writing of the decision and the standard expected in future.


The full agreement can be downloaded from royalmailchat.co.uk downloads section or from cwu.org.

Please note:
• Significant underlying health issues such as recent return from long term absence, recent or imminent hospitalisation, or problems at or outside work. = these should be taken into account by managers!

Following the review meeting the manager will reflect before making a decision whether to issue a formal notification or not. Each case must be treated on its merits. = "whether to issue a formal notification or not" = NOT COMPULSORY


There are sections for employees and sections for managers and how they deal with absence including procedures to follow. Makes interesting reading!