MOYA'S REPLY

[holly123]

A lad at our place wrote to moya and asked about using porches for leaving pkts in ,her reply was not to open any door, if no answer to try neighbours and if this is going to cause O/T the managers should put something in place to help you out ,

[celerycelery]

So what happens if the porch has the letter box on it, are you ok to put all the mail through the porch knowing its open but not the packet?

[TrueBlueTerrier]

So what happens if the porch has the letter box on it, are you ok to put all the mail through the porch knowing its open but not the packet?

How do you "know" its open if you don't open it. You can suspect its open, but you can't actually know it is.

If you are opening it you shouldn't as you are announcing to the anyone watching you that its insecure. If you suspect its open, don't, its considered reasonable for you believe that closed doors are secure, especially as you are not allowed to check - if you do check it can be considered trespass.

[Jamesethefirst]

So what happens if the porch has the letter box on it, are you ok to put all the mail through the porch knowing its open but not the packet?

How do you "know" its open if you don't open it. You can suspect its open, but you can't actually know it is.

If you are opening it you shouldn't as you are announcing to the anyone watching you that its insecure. If you suspect its open, don't, its considered reasonable for you believe that closed doors are secure, especially as you are not allowed to check - if you do check it can be considered trespass.

Not if the letterbox is inside said porch.

[spiderj]

Schrödingers parcel?

[tansorboy]

So what happens if the porch has the letter box on it, are you ok to put all the mail through the porch knowing its open but not the packet?

How do you "know" its open if you don't open it. You can suspect its open, but you can't actually know it is.

If you are opening it you shouldn't as you are announcing to the anyone watching you that its insecure. If you suspect its open, don't, its considered reasonable for you believe that closed doors are secure, especially as you are not allowed to check - if you do check it can be considered trespass.

Trespass? We are posties, not burglars! If someone has ordered something, I reckon they would prefer to have their parcel delivered rather than returned to the DO or left with an unsavoury, non-security-checked neighbour.

[TrueBlueTerrier]

So what happens if the porch has the letter box on it, are you ok to put all the mail through the porch knowing its open but not the packet?

How do you "know" its open if you don't open it. You can suspect its open, but you can't actually know it is.

If you are opening it you shouldn't as you are announcing to the anyone watching you that its insecure. If you suspect its open, don't, its considered reasonable for you believe that closed doors are secure, especially as you are not allowed to check - if you do check it can be considered trespass.

Not if the letterbox is inside said porch.

His scenario was there was a letter box on the porch door. However, in your scenario nothing changes except that you open the porch door to deliver to the official delivery point, but you can't leave any packets in the porch.

[TrueBlueTerrier]

So what happens if the porch has the letter box on it, are you ok to put all the mail through the porch knowing its open but not the packet?

How do you "know" its open if you don't open it. You can suspect its open, but you can't actually know it is.

If you are opening it you shouldn't as you are announcing to the anyone watching you that its insecure. If you suspect its open, don't, its considered reasonable for you believe that closed doors are secure, especially as you are not allowed to check - if you do check it can be considered trespass.

Trespass? We are posties, not burglars! If someone has ordered something, I reckon they would prefer to have their parcel delivered rather than returned to the DO or left with an unsavoury, non-security-checked neighbour.

Correct and as postie we do have protection against trespass up to the official delivery point - not beyond it. You may be right about the resident, however leaving it in an insecure porch is against official policy and can mean dismissal if something goes wrong.

The unsavory neighbour scenario is covered because you can assess the risk as too high to leave with a neighbour and form leave it.

I am not saying I agree with their policy, and I am not saying don't leave it in the porch. What I am saying is its up to each individual postie whether they think the service to the resident is worth the risk of losing their job. Each person has to weigh the risks against the possible outcome, if you think the risk is acceptable then leave it, but you are doing it in the full and certain knowledge that its against Royal Mails policy, and if it goes wrong yo could end up out of a job.

[TrueBlueTerrier]

I must admit to one thing, I amazed people are having trouble understanding the concept. Its against policy to doorstep parcels, and its against policy to leave mail in a known unsecure location.

All the scenarios everyone comes up with are just clouding what is a simple issue.

1. Door Closed - its secure.
2. Door Open - its insecure.
3. Porch with letter box - don't open (even to leave a parcel)
4. Porch without letter box - Open if the letterbox is inside but don't leave anything in the porch.

You can if you want go against the policies and guidelines RM have, but do it knowing the possible risk and outcomes. Its your responsibility and your risk and there is no point in defending your actions by saying "Its what the residents want" because you have no guarantee they'll confirm that, and even if they do, it doesn't matter it is still against RMs instructions and can still lead to dismissal. I mean what happens if a manager is on patrol and sees you doing it - even with the full backing of the customer, and a letter campaign from everyone on your round won't save you from a vindictive by the book automaton who sees a way of cutting his budget.

We all know the risks, and all the reasons why we do it - but ultimately the decision to do it, or not to do it, is up to each individual.

[Darren Bent]

Have people be sacked for leaving parcels in porch ? or Customer complaint about it ?

Just interested to know.

[TrueBlueTerrier]

Have people be sacked for leaving parcels in porch ? or Customer complaint about it ?

Just interested to know.

3 people at may place have been sacked since I started not including attendance, criminal or "storage" incidents. 1 for doorstepping and 2 for leaving in insecure locations (1 was a garage IIRC) the other, some time ago now was a porch, but the customer disputed it. Despite there being an old letter on the frame saying it was okay to do so. Suspicion is that he did leave it, but someone took it before the resident came home. The letter was used in defense of the sacked postie but it was decided that RM policy overrode a customers request, this was backed up on appeal but as he didn't go to an ET it was never tested.

[Hitcher]

Its against policy to doorstep parcels, and its against policy to leave mail in a known unsecure location.

Surely every location is an unknown unless you try it?

3. Porch with letter box - don't open (even to leave a parcel).

But what if the packet fits the letterbox?

[TrueBlueTerrier]

Its against policy to doorstep parcels, and its against policy to leave mail in a known unsecure location.

Surely every location is an unknown unless you try it?

Correct which is why you don't try it. Its reasonable to class a closed door as secure, it becomes a known unsecure location if you open the door.

3. Porch with letter box - don't open (even to leave a parcel).

But what if the packet fits the letterbox?

Then you don't need to open the porch do you.

It being shuts means its deemed reasonable to post it through, after all till you try to open the door, you don't know if the residents have locked it or not. If they haven't and you open the door you can't leave it. If you don't check then if it insecure its unknown and therefore its reasonable to post mail through.

[TrueBlueTerrier]

Another way to put it:

If the door is closed but not locked then its the resident that is taking a risk, and that's no concern of yours.

If you open the doors, you have taken on the risk and that is completely your concern.


People can justify it as many ways as they want, and come up with a multitude of scenarios, but it all boils down to one thing. On each occasion, knowing Royal Mails policies and the possible sanctions, is the risk YOU are taking worth it. Each individual postie will have a different answer, but each postie knows the cost and benefits for every action - after all its YOU who made the decision and its YOU who face the consequences of that decision.

[Hitcher]

Don't forget the Unknown Knowns; things we don't know we know ;)