What happens if we were to vote no?

[heathrow86]

If by some chance we were to reject this deal, what would happen next? Would negotiations start again or would that be it?

[fishtank]

Not that I think it will happen but I think in that situation the 3 main strands of the agreement pay,protections and the delivery issues would be separated.

The pay deal could be put straight back to the membership and would be accepted.
The delivery issues haven't really been resolved anyway so discussions could continue until a genuine way forward is found.
The protection agreement could be redrawn but if the no strike agreement is the major stumbling block that may take some time.
The rest of it is really not that interesting or controversial but it's not a likely scenario anyway.

[north london driver]

If by some chance we were to reject this deal, what would happen next? Would negotiations start again or would that be it?

if by some chance we reject the deal how about if by some chance the deal is agreed how much more absorbtion will delivery offices take how many more door to doors scams will staff be doing for nothing and how many more offices will be shut down.

[new postie]

more work for delivery staff great thanx cwu

[halfull]

the boys on the big wages in the cwu would realize how bad the job has got and this deal is NOWHERE near good enough! And the message would go something like my school parents evening did: Must do better!

[wandle]

If by some chance we were to reject this deal, what would happen next? Would negotiations start again or would that be it?

Dave and Billy would guest-star on 'Live At The Apollo'. When they announce 'we're going on strike... in January!', that laughter will be heard over at Old Street

[arnold cheshire]

If by some chance we were to reject this deal, what would happen next? Would negotiations start again or would that be it?

Dave and Billy would guest-star on 'Live At The Apollo'. When they announce 'we're going on strike... in January!', that laughter will be heard over at Old Street

on feb 6th you mean?

[gashead-postie]

if we voted no dave and billy would have to walk the plank basically

then we would need someone who was strong enough to tackle the issue that the majority want sorting..the deliveries

[Postaltony]

I'm voting no purely because the delivery issues have not been addressed. Pay and protection is fine, buy being shafted by some dodgy d2d deal, lapsing, absorption increases in delivery spans and more and more performance checks is not my idea of a way forward. There is another thread on here which talks about how the older members cope with the new way we work. This also needs to be addressed. I am not quite at the older end but I like many other are not too fat away, and already find the job has become physically more difficult.

Its high time the membership stood for what's right rather than for just the money.

[goinpostal]

I'm voting no purely because the delivery issues have not been addressed. Pay and protection is fine, buy being shafted by some dodgy d2d deal, lapsing, absorption increases in delivery spans and more and more performance checks is not my idea of a way forward. There is another thread on here which talks about how the older members cope with the new way we work. This also needs to be addressed. I am not quite at the older end but I like many other are not too fat away, and already find the job has become physically more difficult.

Its high time the membership stood for what's right rather than for just the money.

Spot on

[visigoth]

I'm voting no purely because the delivery issues have not been addressed. Pay and protection is fine, buy being shafted by some dodgy d2d deal, lapsing, absorption increases in delivery spans and more and more performance checks is not my idea of a way forward. There is another thread on here which talks about how the older members cope with the new way we work. This also needs to be addressed. I am not quite at the older end but I like many other are not too fat away, and already find the job has become physically more difficult.

Its high time the membership stood for what's right rather than for just the money.

D2D/way of working/"modernisation".

I work in a village. Hundreds of new houses in the last 2-3 years, so the "mailcount's down" mantra means nothing to me. In that context ...

... I heard a rumour once that machines would be collating D2Ds into "one per DP" envelopes. I also heard a different rumour that mail would be arriving in "route order". All that's actually happened on the "modernisation" front is ... loads more packets, same equipment (1 bike per round) & temperamental PDAs.

"I am not quite at the older end but I like many other are not too fat away, and already find the job has become physically more difficult."

Exactly the same here. :(

[thevardinator]

I must say I'm leaning towards a no vote, this deal will not address the major problems we encounter day in day out. Serious delivery issues and managerial bullying/harassment.

[Martin Walsh]

Not that I think there is any chance of it being a no vote but let's think if the membership did vote no what would the businesses change ?

First of the union would want to understand why the membership rejected it.


1. I don't think the pay would change and it would not be separated. As it's one of the best around.

2. The Agenda for Growth would not change.

3. Legal protections if the membership rejected it based on the clause of the exceptional circumstances or the that the business will have the right to review if we take industrial action. I think if the membership did this there would be no legal protections as the business would not sign into a commitment which restrict not only Royal Mail but also all the shareholders without any safeguards if the union announce and took strike action.

4. Industrial stability section including the relaunch of the IR framework will not change dramatically. We have to face the fact that when we go on strike or threaten strike action in the future we lose work. Amazon currently giving us 80% of what they send but they have trialled a delivery workforce and are trailing Sunday deliveries. TNT has taken over 6% of delivery work from Royal Mail in 2 years in West London and in South West London over 500 000 items have gone in less than 6 months. Most of the parcel market is not in the USO and UPD , yodel and 20 other firms are all wanting to have that work.
I have taken part and organised more strikes then most but there has to be a culture change from management.

Now let's look at deliveries , we have 1600 offices in the UK. Some are very productive , some are fairly productive , some have huge new developments such as Stratford when 26 000 new delivery points are on stream , some are transformed and some are not.

On this site we do seem to think every office has staff being bullied. Well this is not the case. Yes every person who is being bullied is one too many and needs to be resolved and stopped but we also have to look at facts in any argument.

In the South East Geography covering over 26 000 postmen and women there were ony 34 bulling and harassment cases from April last years , 8 of them were from Mail centres , 12 were aimed at management which led to 10 conduct code cases against those managers and the remainder were employee against employee.

In delivery we have massive change to come. Parcels automations , tracking which will record accurately numbers is less then 2 years away , we have d2d automation trials due to take place , we have PDAs which the soft ware allows for accurate recording of work time on walks and CDVs. To the point that in future customers could request a time for delivery and we will be able to track where there parcel is on route.


The fratigue studies part 1 &2 do not show any evidence and remember heart monitors were attached that fratigue was greater the older you are. Now the CWU will be testing that fact. Some of you may recall that over 60s were allowed up to the early 90s to carry only 30lbs as opposed to 35lbs on their back and this was removed.

Now if anyone is expecting Royal Mail to say we are not going to be efficient and we are not going to absorb work if the workload is done then they are not living in the real world. However that is not the same as saying that what is going on in some offices are unacceptable where absorption means they have to go past their time sometimes with out pay , or that they cut off and managers are casuals are taking the work out which is not in line with the national agreement.

Equally we all know of offices where people rush around breaking every safeguard in order to gain time. Well in those offices management will believe they can absorb more.

Fish has raised a point which is worthy of discussion does the union cut it's losses and agree that the delivery span will drive the number of full time jobs in the future. I think most members would choose to remain full time even if it meant a longer span rather then opt to say a 3.5 span but be forced to reduce their contracted hours from full time to part time but let's have a debate on it.

Now in terms of bullying , well the timeline for rolling out the joint communications to be done by the local rep and the DOM is from 25th January to 6th February. Which will say no one has to work beyond their duty if they are being forced who to contact , explain if they do they are entitled to remuneration , if they feel they are being bullied what to do , and that the 30 mins flex can only be used once per week and the 30 mins has to be repaid within 5 days and that it is not complusory and can only be used for unforseen things like a delay to a flight which means Mail has been delayed or the CSS breaking down etc.

The joint visits on the review will start in the next two weeks to review offices and the staff survey will occur.

on top of that a review of the targets which staff are being asked will take place to see if there achievable , realistic and sustainable.

Equally effiency may not mean harder work as say you walked 20 years to ge your packets or 20 years to get your flats and both of them was then bought closer to you , your effiency would improve but you would not be working harder.

The delivery issues were alway going to be what happens in the future with new products and parcels.

There will never be a situation when delivery methods are dropped and bikes and bages over the shoulder are reinstated. TNT operate on bikes but they only do letters.

by rejecting the delivery agreement for not changing much , when thingsing are happening fast is strange. What do you think will change in deliveries by rejecting the agreement what would you want changed.

[fishtank]

On this site we do seem to think every office has staff being bullied. Well this is not the case.

I think that's a very foolish thing to say. I don't think every office necessarily has a serious management led bullying problem but I would doubt there are many of the 1600 offices who haven't seen some form of bullying at some point during the last 12 months.

It's very dangerous to publicly downplay the scale of bullying because what that does is

a) It reinforces the bully's belief that they can get away with it.
and..
b) It reinforces the victim's belief that they will not be taken seriously.
and
c) It legitimises the employer's biased position that there is nothing to see.

Unions should never be seen to underestimate or downplay bullying & harassment in the workplace, If anything they should overplay it so that everyone is more than aware what kind of behaviour will not be tolerated.

[chrisj]

On this site we do seem to think every office has staff being bullied. Well this is not the case.

I think that's a very foolish thing to say. I don't think every office necessarily has a serious management led bullying problem but I would doubt there are many of the 1600 offices who haven't seen some form of bullying at some point during the last 12 months.

It's very dangerous to publicly downplay the scale of bullying because what that does is

Thank you!

It does not matter even if some of us have tried to clarify that it is not always outright Bullying that is the issue but constant harassment.

And who ever talked about every office... Given the many posts and many offices involved - even on this site. One has to be flabbergasted that one of the more Senior reps is so outwardly on the side of RM - no big deal on B&H!

Why bother when the UNION does not even believe the members or does not have some sort of empathy towards their member's plight. Why bother with Surveys and Reviews?

* I will challenge a lot of posters on here to claim that they have not seen any form of harassment towards at least one employee in their office???