Another change to attendance times

[Mezza]

This is just in relation to our indoor duties.
With our office revision the indoor staff had a meeting with our DOM and times of attendance were agreed mutually.
That was about 3 months ago and we've been working those times.

However yesterday our DOM gave us a sheet of paper and just muttered something about it being for our information.
It contained new attendance times for each of the indoor duties. All duties starting and finishing another 15 minutes later each day.

We complained to the DOM stating there had been no agreement to the proposed changes. He informed us that he had arranged a meeting last Friday with all of us, but as none of us had chosen to attend he took it as our acceptance to the proposed changes.

We were never informed of any meeting and usually he would come round and grab each of us and take us into his office for any meeting.

He says the changes come into effect from Monday.

We are putting in a grievance tomorrow, but need to know how we stand....
Can we ignore the proposed changes and just come in as normal - if so what are the implications?

Or, do we need to work these new hours whilst the grievance is dealt with and await the outcome?

I should mention that we are already at Stage 2 Disagreement over our DOMs attempt to change a 8 year arrangement where the indoor staff worked a 1 in 4 pattern. He wants us to work a 1 in 6.
This latest attempt to mess about with our attendance is seen by us as just a way of getting back at us for our Disagreement. There is no logical reason for changing our attendance times, the rest of the office starts at the same time as we do and normally finish well before we do.

We are in touch with our Area Rep, but he is difficult to reach at times and would appreciate some clarification in the meantime.

[fishtank]

While a disagreement is being heard status quo applies.
No change to attendance times.

[Mezza]

That's what i thought.
Our Area rep has been in touch and he said the same thing.
His only concern was that our DOM could view it as unofficial industrial action. He is going to contact HQ for clarification and let us know.

[IcanthelpthewayIam]

That's what i thought.
Our Area rep has been in touch and he said the same thing.
His only concern was that our DOM could view it as unofficial industrial action. He is going to contact HQ for clarification and let us know.

the only thing is you need to get a formal disagreement in about it asap, from your post it looks like the existing disagreement is about another matter, so you need to get a new one lodged about this matter asap

[Mezza]

Cheers for that.

We are putting in a formal grievance tomorrow.

[k979aaa]

Cheers for that.

We are putting in a formal grievance tomorrow.

Good luck mate keep us updated if you can.

[Mezza]

Will do, thank's for the input.

[Mezza]

Update....


3 grievance letters were served this morning (as it affects 3 indoor staff).
Our DOM has said he knows nothing about them (obviously his boss hasn't spoken to him about the matter yet) and so is enforcing the new duty times as from Monday.

We've been in touch with our Area Union rep who says he thinks we have an extremely strong case, but whilst the grievance process is going through it's motions we should in his opinion work the new hours imposed by our DOM.

At the moment in our office the delivery staff all start at 6:30 Mon-Friday and 6;00 on Saturdays.

My current times are Mon & Tues 06.30-14:03. Weds, thurs & Fri 06.30-14:33 and Sat 06.00-13.33.

My new times from Monday are Monday 06.30-14.03, tues 07.15-14.48, Weds, Thurs & Fri 06.45-14.48, Sat 06.00-13.33.

[clashcityrocker]

I don't know if it is simply a question of vocabulary but a grievance isn't what is needed.
Your union rep needed to put in a disagreement. While that disagreement is heard, as previously posted the status quo should hold and your times should not change.
If your Area Rep is advising you to go with the new times, he doesn't appear interested in a disagreement.
If you start those new times, my guess is you will stay with those new times.

[Mezza]

The disagreement was over proposed changes to our attendance. We do a 1 week in 4 rotation and they want to put us on a 1 week in 6.
This disagreement is at stage 2 and has been for some time as the person that needs to deal with it has been on holiday. We are still waiting to see what the outcome of this is.

In the meantime our DOM is trying to change our hours of attendance.
Our Local Union Rep is fairly inexperienced, so we have been in contact with our Area Rep over all this.
It was his advice to put in a grievance to the change of hours and again his advice to work those new hours whilst it is dealt with.

We realise that if we start working these hours the likely hood is we will never be able to go back. But if that's the advice the Union give you when you ask for it, what are you supposed to do?
If we ignore the Area rep (who said he had been in touch with HQ for clarification on what we should do) and our DOM decides we are taking unofficial action we could be in all sorts of crap.

Why oh why does something supposedly so straightforward have to be so complicated.

We knew somewhere along the line we would get shafted, despite the Union assurances that management didn't have a leg to stand on.
If this all comes down to ,mis-information from the union there could well be 3 less members in our office.

[tetley smooth]

Sorry to hear what is happening to you at your office. But an area rep should know better. Its basic IR framework ffs. No wonder people lose faith.

[Mezza]

If possible could someone point me in the right direction of any relevent documentation, be it via download etc. Perhaps relevent sections of the IR Agreement ( only copy i can find is dated 1994), or anything else.

It's my day off Monday, but if i can email the other indoor staff with anything that may support us in our attempt to not accept these proposed changes it would be hugely appreciated.

I have had a look through the downloads section but with so many documents and amendments it's hard to know what i'm actually searching for.


Thank's if anyone can help here - fast running out of time.

[SpacePhoenix]

You've not said if there's a change to the arrival time of the work from your local MC, if the lorry is arriving 15 mins later then there might not be anything you can do. If the work is not arriving till 15 mins later and there is no other work then i can't see RM having people sat around doing nothing for 15 mins

[Mezza]

There is no change to the arrival times.
Staff are being asked to come in early for an hours O/T to clear the nights arrivals, which leaves just one more arrival. Nobody is sitting around.

This only concerns the 3 indoor staff. One is front counter. One is DOM support ( some strange new job title) - does BRP's and other indoor work, and the third is me in the RLE.

Having spent hours trawling through documents on agreements and framework that i don't even know if are still relevent it appears to me:

1/Our disagreement that was lodged some 4 weeks ago (which just concerned our attendance pattern) has gone to Stage 2, but we've heard no more - surely that's past suggested time scale to be dealt with, so what does that mean?
2/ If the Disagreement is still being dealt with then there can be no changes to our times of attendance either?
3/ Following advice from Area Rep, we put in a grievance about the proposed change to attendance times - this may not have been the correct advice?
4/ At the end of the day we are being shafted and despite our Union membership and despite Agreements being in place to protect us from this sort of practice we have a DOM who can do as he pleases due to our Area Union Rep not really caring enough to help us and there is nothing we can do about it.

[IcanthelpthewayIam]

1/Our disagreement that was lodged some 4 weeks ago (which just concerned our attendance pattern) has gone to Stage 2, but we've heard no more - surely that's past suggested time scale to be dealt with, so what does that mean?

ask them in writing why your disagreement has not been heard yet

2/ If the Disagreement is still being dealt with then there can be no changes to our times of attendance either?

your other disagreement is due to getting 1 in 4 off which is being proposed to be changed, this is a separate matter they can try and change them, that is why you should have put in a disagreement with this also

3/ Following advice from Area Rep, we put in a grievance about the proposed change to attendance times - this may not have been the correct advice?

You should have put in a stage 1 disagreement, not a grievance

4/ At the end of the day we are being shafted and despite our Union membership and despite Agreements being in place to protect us from this sort of practice we have a DOM who can do as he pleases due to our Area Union Rep not really caring enough to help us and there is nothing we can do about it.

simple go above him, contact your branch secretary and if that doesn t work contact HQ

Also you normally need to be given 28 days notice of changes to attendance times(unless you accept less) you have had less than a week, Monday you are still on your normal start time, inform your DOM in writing that as you have not had the normal minimum 28 days notice of change of hours of work(there is no actual legal minimum) you will be working your normal hours tuesday, its harder to change it back once its changed so dont move until you are willing to

Also ask him for a written explanation detailing exactly why your start times are to change