Conduct interview

[celtic_eagle]

Hello all, i've been charged for gross misconduct and have my meeting tomorrow. Its a long story so I won't go into it.

What I want to know is can I use past unpunished events of the same nature by other people in my defence? Management already know of these incidents so im not dropping anyone in it but they have got away unpunished while im having to book thrown at me.

Thanks for any help.

[TrueBlueTerrier]

Hello all, i've been charged for gross misconduct and have my meeting tomorrow. Its a long story so I won't go into it.

What I want to know is can I use past unpunished events of the same nature by other people in my defence? Management already know of these incidents so im not dropping anyone in it but they have got away unpunished while im having to book thrown at me.

Thanks for any help.

You need a rep in with you for starters, if possible an Area Rep.

Sorry its not as Black and White as that.

As to mentioning previous incidents, its a judgement call hence the advice to get an ADR involved.

Your own previous disciplinary record will have a bearing especially if you "got away" like the others have with it before. Also if the other "offenders" have been informally warned it might not help.

However, if you haven't done it before, and the others have got away without it even being mentioned (informal warning) then you may have a case for being treated unfairly.

However, this won't work if the bosses and or the Union have warned that any further incidents would be treated differently, in that case they may be deemed as taking reasonable action.

So back to my original comment - get the Area Delivery Reps advice as soon as possible, without the full facts, and local knowledge its near impossible to give you anything approaching useful advice.

[Dorset Plodder]

Problem with that defence is Eagle it will look like a case of "Sour Grapes", and may sound a bit childish if not presented properly. A bit like, "What about him? He did this and he did that.....".

I agree it seems unfair to punish you for something that others have got away with. If possible I suggest you present the times, dates, names etc (possibly in a letter that you take to the meeting) and simply ask the Manager why these events were not dealt with the same way as yours. You might state that you believe you are being discriminated against because the Manager doesn't like you etc and you aren't being dealt with fairly (because he has let these other offenses go unpunished).

It goes with out saying that I hope you are being represented by your Union Rep? It is at times like these that you need their support. Good Luck tomorrow.

[celtic_eagle]

Hi mate, its something i've never done before. The others that have got away with it still continue it now so im assuming they haven't been spoken to. My union rep is involved and the area rep is calling him tonight to help him. Nothing has been said about future incidents either and I do believe im being treated unfairly as the others were a lot more serious then what im charged with.

Waiting to see if I can use the past examples with union backing or if they will refuse to help me as im reporting other people. As said its stuff managers already knew about so im hoping I can use it in my defence as im not dropping them in it.

Thanks for your help.

[celtic_eagle]

Hi dorset, didn't want to use peoples names but was intending to use the incidents as the managers know full well what im talking about. I intend to present it well as i really don't want it to sound like sour grapes as you say, think i've got a valid case for victimisation.

Found a document that was agreed by royal mail, cwu and unite that give their definition of victimisation as Victimisation is the unfair and selective punishment of, or discrimination against, an individual.

[Dorset Plodder]

Glad you've got Union Representation Eagle. I'm a great believer in putting things in writing (and with PCs keeping a copy) mainly because the spoken word is worth the paper it's written on. RM do not employ particularly clever or intelligent Managers (although I'm sure a few slip through), they are human and when pressured they take the Easy Way Out and often just deny everything! Copy everything to your Manager and Put at the bottom "Copy to CWU Rep".

If in future you need to discuss anything with your Manager about some query try e-mailing him....he has an official Royal Mail e-mail address and it will be recorded. You can get that e-mail delivery verified as well. This may sound excessive but now you have stuck your head above the parapet you will become a target and you will need to watch your back. It is a sorry state of affairs (and we all wish we could just come to work and get paid for the job) but nowadays it never seems that easy!

Once again Good Luck for tomorrow

[fishtank]

Waiting to see if I can use the past examples with union backing or if they will refuse to help me as im reporting other people.

In a disciplinary case where there is no doubt that the event took place the most important fact becomes whether the member knew what they were doing was a breach of the conduct code or not.

That's the position you would take using past examples,not that they were individually treated differently but that the lack of disciplinary action regarding these cases led you to believe that what you did was accepted practice.
Of course how effective this argument will be depends on the level of training you've had and how up to date it is.

Employment tribunals will seldom take any notice of examples of differing levels of punishment because that takes them into the vagueness of "management discretion" something that is difficult to rule on,the only exceptions are usually if you have a solid case of discrimination based on one of the protected characteristics.

They do however expect an employer to clearly communicate what is and what isn't accepted behaviour and if a manager is consistently turning a blind eye to certain practices that leaves that communication under question.

[celtic_eagle]

To be fair what im accused of is extremely common practice on the rural duties and yes the people in the past cases knew it would be a breach of company rules. The only reason I did it was forgetfulness, i was that busy it completely slipped my mind and wasn't intentional.

The office dom was on holiday at the time and power hungry line manager was in charge, the dom has already said if he was there he would of sorted it in office but the line manager has notified the higher ups. I've had my run in's with the line manager in the past and they know what goes on in the rural duties but has failed to do anything about it till it came to me.

Luckily the area rep has already been in touch and said use the examples without name dropping which isn't an issue and also to tell them its a common practice. Its stuff I was taught when I first started the rurals and thats been over 3 years now but have never done it before until now and as said wasn't intentional.

Fingers crossed I hope i've got a strong case and intend to fight it all the way if it goes pear shaped.

[daveyeff]

if the case is passed up (or has been already) then they are probably going to try for a dismissal. otherwise they would just keep it ''in house''. i suspect your lino holds a grudge and will try to get it passed up. its happened a few times in our office under the last ''capo regime'' who was a right lump of shyte. the area rep was involved in all cases and won them all. the nazi dom was then moved on. his is now a world class mail champion......that figures.

[celtic_eagle]

Area rep does seem pretty good and is willing to fight this for me if it all goes wrong.

We have recently had our ex union man made up to a dom. In his time there he has lost multiple specials, set fire to collection mail by dropping his ciggy in a drop bag, refused to take a full round out claiming he didnt have time and was suspended for damaging items at a customers property. Like i said he kept his job and was made dom.

Im in bother for not endorsing mailsorts, going to make sure they have that chucked at them tomorrow with our current union reps blessing.

[Glenno]

Custom & Practice simples

[celtic_eagle]

What do you mean by that please glenno?

[TrueBlueTerrier]

Custom & Practice simples

What do you mean by that please glenno?

To be fair what im accused of is extremely common practice on the rural duties and yes the people in the past cases knew it would be a breach of company rules.

Luckily the area rep has already been in touch and said use the examples without name dropping which isn't an issue and also to tell them its a common practice. Its stuff I was taught when I first started the rurals and thats been over 3 years now but have never done it before until now and as said wasn't intentional.

Waiting to see if I can use the past examples with union backing or if they will refuse to help me as im reporting other people.

That's the position you would take using past examples,not that they were individually treated differently but that the lack of disciplinary action regarding these cases led you to believe that what you did was accepted practice.
Of course how effective this argument will be depends on the level of training you've had and how up to date it is.

They do however expect an employer to clearly communicate what is and what isn't accepted behaviour and if a manager is consistently turning a blind eye to certain practices that leaves that communication under question.

Custom and Practice is the short way of describing all of the above.

[celtic_eagle]

Well just back from my interview, have a feeling they will still push for dismissal but believe I have a very strong case as does the union.

They tried to tell me they didn't believe I was trained to do what i've been suspended for. I said I had been trained the same on all rural duties and that management are well aware its happened in the past and continues today as its common practice.

Line manager admitted they knew about it and when I said I feel very hard done by being the only one in trouble for it he said good point and the interview ended.

As said i feel it will go all the way but at least they have admitted knowing what goes on which is hopefully good in my favor

Cow of a line manager who dropped me in it had the cheek to try and be nice to me today, just blanked her.

[celtic_eagle]

Sorry to drag this up again but as I stated above they have gone for dismissal much to my union rep and area reps surprise and anger. I've appealed straight away but want to know if the DOM has gone about this right.

I was given the DOM's decision today, I only found out about the interview because I text my union rep yesterday saying I hadn't heard anything and he said he thought I was in today. He went off to check and 10 minutes later a line manager phoned me and asked me to go in at 11.30 today. No paperwork was sent out to me asking to attend etc, was only by chance I found out. it was also less then 24 hours notice of the interview which im sure isn't allowed.

Went to the interview, the DOM got out a letter which he said I needed to sign and get a copy of. He read the letter containing his decision but then the paperwork vanished, I never signed a copy or received a copy myself.

Im pretty sure i'll win an appeal as his decision is a load of crap but has the DOM followed procedure correctly as I've had no paperwork for today prior to the meeting or had any paperwork to take away from it apart from a copy of my own appeal letter.

Thanks.