Appeal question

[st-postie]

Hi, Firstly sorry for the lack of detail as to why i was dismissed (id prefer not to post to much) but im after some info regarding appeal timescales/procedure.

I was dismissed without notice and appealed within the 3 days. The appeal procedure says an appeal will be heard within 4weeks. My problem is that I've now been waiting over 6weeks for my appeal hearing date but still havent heard anything. I can confirm that Royal Mail definitely received my appeal as confirmed by my union rep. Firstly is waiting over 6weeks for an appeal date common/not following procedure?

Secondly, After speaking to my union rep he said that Royal Mail have 60days from the date i was dismissed to hear and give a decision on my appeal. He also revealed that if an appeal isn't fully carried out within the 60days then Royal Mail would have no choice but to find in my favour.

I just wanted to know if this information from my rep, regarding the 60days, is accurate as i cant find any info referring to it in any procedures, policies or by using the search on the forum.

Thanks

[UnhappyGremlin]

I would expect your Rep is accurate with his info. It may be useful to you to PM one of the Reps on here with more details about your case so that they may be able to advise you better, as I can understand you not wanting to made details public.

One thing I would make you aware of is if the RM appeal fails, you only have 3 months from the date of your dismissal to file for an Employment Tribunal, if you want to take it that far. So it may be worth considering filling this paperwork even before you know the outcome of your appeal. Again, ask Reps advice on this.

[Pat Ostman]

So it may be worth considering filing this paperwork even before you know the outcome of your appeal.

Do it. Good advice.

[hantsman]

Forget the 60 days that's not true.

File the ET1 before 3 months less a day if you are going to.

You wont be returning to RM regardless of the appeal

Sounds harsh but the above is 99% going to happen

[IcanthelpthewayIam]

You wont be returning to RM regardless of the appeal

sorry thats bollocks, RM have reinstated plenty of people after a successful appeal, yeah plenty of people not being reinstated either but its not as cut and dried as you suggest

[General Mannerheim]

Reinstated plenty of people?
Well they have done that twice in my 20 odd years service in my office and both times it was because of wrongful procedures of the manager not being of a high enough ranking to have actually dismissed the person in question.
All the other times and especially for attendance procedures you have no chance...the appeals manager even has the nickname of `The Black Widow` as she fires everybody.
They will only reinstate if their lawyers have advised that the case would be dodgy in an ET.

[IcanthelpthewayIam]

Reinstated plenty of people?
Well they have done that twice in my 20 odd years service in my office and both times it was because of wrongful procedures of the manager not being of a high enough ranking to have actually dismissed the person in question.
All the other times and especially for attendance procedures you have no chance...the appeals manager even has the nickname of `The Black Widow` as she fires everybody.
They will only reinstate if their lawyers have advised that the case would be dodgy in an ET.

slightly missing the point i am trying to make,

hantsman stated even if the appeal was successful then no chance of getting job back

i am saying the opposite, if appeal is successful then good chance of getting job back, but as i said dependent on a successful appeal (and thats the difficult part)

[whisperstar24]

i want to be straight with you over your chances of getting your job back. I know quite a few people who have been through the appeal system and then went to ET.They probably had to wait about 60 days for the appeal.The outcome took another 2 months .As far as i know there is no default about you getting your job back if royal mail dont complete within timescales.They will just write to you and explain that there is a delay due to complication and cover themselves.
As per previous advice about your internal appeal outcome. It will hopefully be heard by a fair manager but most of the time it is about management going to their solicitors and finding out if you could win an ET against royal mail.This has nothing to do with whether you were wrongfully dismissed or indeed not at fault.Royal mail dont care about that.If there were errors in your procedure then you might win your internal appeal but if not,be prepared to get another job.
As per advice get your ET in within the 90 days of being dismissed.This will make royal mail think about your appeal decision.
The union will look at it if you have got a 50/50 chance and support you at an et.

hope it goes well for you

[hantsman]

Reinstated plenty of people?
Well they have done that twice in my 20 odd years service in my office and both times it was because of wrongful procedures of the manager not being of a high enough ranking to have actually dismissed the person in question.
All the other times and especially for attendance procedures you have no chance...the appeals manager even has the nickname of `The Black Widow` as she fires everybody.
They will only reinstate if their lawyers have advised that the case would be dodgy in an ET.

slightly missing the point i am trying to make,

hantsman stated even if the appeal was successful then no chance of getting job back

i am saying the opposite, if appeal is successful then good chance of getting job back, but as i said dependent on a successful appeal (and thats the difficult part)

Not a chance, RM don't have to reinstate and they wont end of. They just have to pay a bit more.

Thats why the appeal fails most of the time

[hantsman]

You wont be returning to RM regardless of the appeal

sorry thats bollocks, RM have reinstated plenty of people after a successful appeal, yeah plenty of people not being reinstated either but its not as cut and dried as you suggest

I wish it was bollocks. Its cut and dried just about every time.

[st-postie]

Thanks for all the straight and honest advice everyone. All been taken onboard and ET form will be going in asap.

Quite scary to think that the Royal Mail appeals process appears to be rather corrupt rather than fair from some of the comments here!

From reading the comments it appears I need Royal Mail to have tripped up on a procedure to get my job back regardless of whether I was unfairly dismissed or not.

Are there any common procedures RM usually trip themselves up on? I appreciate it may be difficult to advise on this without knowing the details of my case so apologies if that question is a bit stupid. Id just like to know where to look for a procedure flaw, if that is possibly the only way I may get my job back.

Thanks all

[hantsman]

Thanks for all the straight and honest advice everyone. All been taken onboard and ET form will be going in asap.

Quite scary to think that the Royal Mail appeals process appears to be rather corrupt rather than fair from some of the comments here!

From reading the comments it appears I need Royal Mail to have tripped up on a procedure to get my job back regardless of whether I was unfairly dismissed or not.

Are there any common procedures RM usually trip themselves up on? I appreciate it may be difficult to advise on this without knowing the details of my case so apologies if that question is a bit stupid. Id just like to know where to look for a procedure flaw, if that is possibly the only way I may get my job back.

Thanks all

You wont be returning especially if your a long term full time postman I'm afraid

[General Mannerheim]

Most of the time they cover their backs pretty well and you must remember that they only to have to show that they had a reasonable belief at the time of dismissal that you was guilty of whatever thing it was that got you dismissed ... but you should look at.... did they follow everything through properly, like supplying you with all the documents relevant to your case,things like witness statements used by them to come to their decision,did you have proper union representation or did they allow a colleague into the dismissal hearing...look through the written reasons for your dismissal and then request a `Section 92 written reasons` from HR services(they have 14 days to send it) sometimes when you receive it there not the same reasons, if not then you can explore that.
Good Luck.

[fishtank]

During 2010 a total of 632 individuals appealed against a decision to dismiss them;in 136 cases the appeal was upheld or the disciplinary penalty was reduced. The number of appeals lodged in 2011 was 775: our records show that 202 individuals had their appeal upheld or the disciplinary penalty reduced from dismissal.

Purely by statistics since you haven't given details you have around a 20-25% chance of winning your appeal.
If you win your internal appeal outright or have the penalty reduced,you will likely be re-instated despite what some are saying.
For RM to go to a tribunal having already shown the dismissal unsound themselves would be stupid.
If the dismissal is upheld you will have to go to an Employment Tribunal,that is where it gets tricky because the odds on winning that are even less than 20% and even if you win Royal Mail do not necessarily have to reinstate you.

[st-postie]

Thanks for the replies.

General Mannerheim - One thing regarding access to documents, I was presented with statements on the day during my disciplinary meeting. These statements were dated 3 weeks prior to my disciplinary meeting but only turned up during my meeting. It was rather concerning at the time how I wasn't made aware of these statements prior to my meeting given the date they were taken.

I also didn't and wasn't offered to have union representation during an "initial discussion" with the dom.

Im unsure as to whether these 2 points will be relevant/change anything at appeal given peoples views of the appeals process on here but I did include these 2 points along with others in my appeals letter.