New diesel engined vans - a potential financial disaster?

[Zootsuit]

Ouch. There have been discussions on this subject before - initially on the Peugeot vans that have Diesel Particulate Filter (DPF) and cooling fan problems. It wasn't until I drove the new Fiat Doblo van the other day though and was told about the problems they are having with the DPF that I realised what a potentially expensive issue this could be.

For those that haven't heard about the problem it goes like this:

The DPF is fitted in the exhaust pipeline and cuts down on exhaust emissions (to comply with EU regulations) by filtering out sooty stuff before it gets to the atmosphere. It works when it gets hot, to get hot enough to work the vehicle needs to run at at least 40 - 50 mph continuously for 10 to 20 minutes (depending on what you read). If it doesn't get up to operating temperature it starts to clog and eventually, if not regularly cleared by operating at the right temperature will need to be replaced - and they are not cheap at around £1000 a piece.

Herein lies the rub, if you were to go to a dealer of modern diesel engined vehicles and tell them that you wanted a vehicle to operate on short distance runs with frequent stopping and starting they would advise against using a new diesel vehicle at all. Because of the way the DPF works they would advise the purchase of a petrol engined vehicle instead.

So why in the long term is this going to cost Royal Mail (or whoever buys it) a fortune? In the short term it's fuel and time. As mentioned already to make it work properly the engine has to be run at a constant temperature to get the DPF working. If the vans are not being run like this during normal operating cycles (and not many of ours are) they have to be run especially to maintain the DPF. With something like 30,000 vans either being driven or run just to get the filters working there is going to be a hefty slice of budget going on extra fuel and time alone.

In the long term the cost of man hours, repairs and vehicles off the road (necessitating more hire vans?) is surely going to be considerable. Careful management of individual office fleets might help by rotating vehicles through jobs to make sure that they all go on a combination of long and short jobs, but can anyone see that happening?

I just wonder whether this really is a monumental mistake and, if so, who is responsible? Would they be held accountable or get big bonuses because they got a good purchase deal with Fiat or whoever? How would shareholders react in a company that did this?
Or maybe it's all been taken into account and at the end of the day it makes more financial sense than starting to use a petrol engined fleet. We'll probably never know and will just carry on with the constant hassle of warning lights and break downs. Seems a shame to have to put with it on a brand new fleet though doesn't it, and as for disconnecting the battery on the Peugeot to stop the fan running........................

[krussel]

DPF has been a known problem for a while. It dumps fuel into the engine oil which over fills and then triggers an early service light to come on and can place some cars in limp mode. On the Jaguar forum some have had to change the oil twice a year to prevent the problem happeneing.

[motch]

I find the peugeot bipper vans gearbox freeze up for a while when it's -5c overnight. have to leave them running for about 10-20 mins to get them working sometimes.

[parcelboy]

Just another example of these incompetant RM Managers wasting more money and they are rewarded for these monumental f*** ups come on CWU how much more evidence is needed the list is endless.I often wonder how much money has been lost .Investment my a** *crazy: *

[arnold cheshire]

diesel cars are the same even audi a6 or ford focus

[fb1969]

When I take a van out I flick through the settings on the "computer" using the button at the end of the wiper stalk. All of the vans I have used are 12 reg and have around
4-5000 miles on them. The best I have seen so far for average mpg is about 29, and the highest average speed is 11 mph - with one at just 9 mph.

That sort of use doesn't justify a diesel engine at all, but the added problems of the DPF make the decision to use them ridiculous. It is thought that your need to do around 12-15000 miles a year to make the extra costs of a diesel worth paying. Too many people (and companies by the looks of it) just assume that diesel means economical.

[fishtank]

The new vans are leased.
Who picks up this extra maintenance cost is debatable.
I would have thought that cost would have been fixed at the point of tender,that's what a sensible business would have done...but it is RM procurement we're talking about.

[DB1100]

When I take a van out I flick through the settings on the "computer" using the button at the end of the wiper stalk. All of the vans I have used are 12 reg and have around
4-5000 miles on them. The best I have seen so far for average mpg is about 29, and the highest average speed is 11 mph - with one at just 9 mph.

That sort of use doesn't justify a diesel engine at all, but the added problems of the DPF make the decision to use them ridiculous. It is thought that your need to do around 12-15000 miles a year to make the extra costs of a diesel worth paying. Too many people (and companies by the looks of it) just assume that diesel means economical.

If you were to compare petrol engines of a similar capacity the figures would be even worse,petrol engines are very thirsty till they reach the ideal operating temperature that's why taxi's used to be all diesel,then along came the DPF and that made diesel engines useless for stop start jobs,couple that with a turbocharger and it just makes thing's worse.I suspect the procurement division was more interested in the "incentives" that were on offer.

[UnhappyGremlin]

I'm still amazed how many people are surprised by these types of cock ups by RM. The DPF issue wouldn't have even been questioned, suitability of the vans for their intended purpose wouldn't have been raised. But they should have been by whoever spoke to the leasing company, they should have explained the manner in which the vans were to be used, at which point a more suitable type of vehicle should have been selected.

I think there is every likelihood that this will end up costing RM a considerable amount of money, due to incompetence. But it would be more of a surprise if it didn't. Take the latest version of uniform, it's cheaper than its preceding version, but it is also crap, net result being we order more of it than we ever have before.

On another note, have heard the rumour that the company we lease vans from is owned or part owned by an RM board member and/or their spouse. Whether or not it's true I don't know. But if it is, would explain it. They would only look at the easiest way to make the most money. And I don't doubt the deal that was negotiated between RM and the leasing company probably leaves us liable for repair costs.

[fb1969]

I would think that standard servicing would be included in the lease agreement, but DPF replacement isn't standard servicing.

I'm surprised RM didn't buy up a load of old electric milk floats from a dairy!

[UnhappyGremlin]

I would think that standard servicing would be included in the lease agreement, but DPF replacement isn't standard servicing.

I'm surprised RM didn't buy up a load of old electric milk floats from a dairy!

Don't encourage them.

[DGP1]

Electric vehicles would be fine for local deliveries but I'd be looking for hydrogen fuel cell vehicles............just wait until you crash one of those

[darude]

Go back to bikes.Simples !

[P13]

Go back to bikes.Simples !

The vast majority of postmen and women have never had bikes so couldn't go back to using something they never had in the first place

[arnold cheshire]

this isnt new i knew of this problem on a 55 reg focus