Estimating how much mail you can deliver

[Orinoko]

We're struggling with oversized deliveries and getting out late in our office which has lead to many posties finding it hard to complete deliveries in the allowed time. Overtime is given if you go over your time but many posties don't want to do this so initially were cutting off. The managers didn't like this so now we're asked to let them know if you don't think you'll be able to complete. Now as we as posties know it's impossible to determine how long a delivery will take as it depends on the number of people who are in and therefore how many p739's you have to write out which slows you down. But because they don't want mail brought back you have to estimate and take what you can without going over your time. Obviously very hard to get right so really you should guess judging it as if a high number of customers are out just in case.
This brings me to the problem that happened recently in our office. 2 posties with a shared van didn't want to go over their time so told the line manager they might not be able to finish. He asked them what they coud take in order to finish within their working time, they estimated and that's what they took out. However on this day they only had to write out one p739(very unusual) and so returned to the office 20 minutes early. The line manager saw them and a decision has been made to suspend them from deliveries as in his opinion they could have taken more.
You could probably guess it reasonably close 90% of the time but sometimes for example if you write out a dozen or more p739's you could be 30minutes or more out so surely you do have to take less than what could be an average assessment. For example If I just had 20 packets to deliver and everyone was in it could take 30 minutes, if everyone was out and I had to 'now' knock on neighbours doors too it could take over an hour. How can we possibly estimte this?
Other posties have told me they were silly and should have slowed down or just sat in the van waiting to come back on time but why should they, that would be dishonest yet they're being penalised for being honest.
If managers are going to work this system they have to accept the facts that estimating how much you can take is always going to be wrong on occasions. Also if you do come back early do you have to tell a manager, as I don't think they did, but then I've never been told to inform a line manager if I finish early taking everything out so why should they.

[eastie]

they should have thrown their D2D'S off for the following day to use the time up if the DOM was that petty, or said to the DOMthey had gone over a previous day

[osgoody1970]

put the ball in the managers hands, tell him you will take it all out, and at twevle noon you will phone him with a clearer idea of what time you expect to finish, if he does'nt answer the phone, tell him you will bring it back anyway, that is a much better way of doing things as you cannot tell how long a walk should take on a given day, the union should engage royal mail about this as it is happening too often!!!!

[jcjd]

You inform manager you may not be able to complete and don't want overtime, he gives you instruction ie do your best, takes work off you ect
Now if you return a bit early he could ask you to go out again and as long as you;re prepared to work your time he hasn't a leg to stand on

[Lincox]

I agree, it is not for you to guess how much to take out. It is for your manager to make this decision. If you feel it is too much you must agree a time for him to call you, before you leave the depot, so that you can tell him how you are getting on and whether you think you can complete, usually 30 minutes to an hour before your finish time taking into account you need at least 15 minutes back at depot to pouch off etc plus time to get back. If you tell him that you wont be able to complete he should instruct you what to do with the overrun, whether to bring back to the depot or whether someone will come out to take over. Dont get into guessing games with them.

[fishtank]

the union should engage royal mail about this as it is happening too often!!!!

I agree.
It's time to renegotiate the overrunning deliveries procedure as it is no longer fit for purpose.
It was designed for a rare occurrence under the old system when mail volumes were unusually high and members couldn't work on.
It wasn't designed to be used every day as a result of a low model traffic week and deliberate under resourcing.
It certainly doesn't address the issues of two in a van.
What if postie A makes the decision on how much they can deliver and gets it wrong...how does that work out for postie B?
What if they can't agree?

put the ball in the managers hands, tell him you will take it all out, and at twevle noon you will phone him with a clearer idea of what time you expect to finish.

The problem with that scenario is who will then deliver it?
If a manager sends someone out with too much mail knowing they won't complete and with no contingency to deliver the excess....that is deliberately failing QofS just as much as hiding it in the boiler room.
It's a recipe for a P45 for the manager.

[clashcityrocker]

I agree.
It's time to renegotiate the overrunning deliveries procedure as it is no longer fit for purpose.

Just as long as there is no mention of any playground furniture.

[Silly Sarah]

What a joke? Where on earth do we find these bonehead, bullying managers? All they seem to know is getting things done their way through confrontation and harassment. This sort of treatment kills any goodwill that may remain between staff and management. Do any of them have any people skills? In my mind these guys did absolutely nothing wrong. I would say that if they were only 20mins out on the finish time they guessed, then that was a bloody good guess. Its RM that is at fault for giving us unrealistic, unachievable workloads and employing totally incompetent managers to oversee it all. In turn they are overseen by managers, obsessed with budgets, who haven't got a clue whats going on outside their office

[tommyrep]

What a joke? Where on earth do we find these bonehead, bullying managers? All they seem to know is getting things done their way through confrontation and harassment. This sort of treatment kills any goodwill that may remain between staff and management. Do any of them have any people skills? In my mind these guys did absolutely nothing wrong. I would say that if they were only 20mins out on the finish time they guessed, then that was a bloody good guess. Its RM that is at fault for giving us unrealistic, unachievable workloads and employing totally incompetent managers to oversee it all. In turn they are overseen by managers, obsessed with budgets, who haven't got a clue whats going on outside their office

Sarah,
You are right about managements stance on over-running duties due to unrealistic unachievable worloads, and Fishtanks comment on the procedure now being unfit for shared van cover is also spot on. This has now become a major problem in the day to day working life of a postie at any DO. Any traffic OVER the model week is basically unachievable within a duty span unless managers have the foresight to introduce additional hours and that is the biggest NO-NO to request on a conference call - your referal to them being obsessed with budgets is all they are interested in is also right, providing a good standard of service and treating staff with any sort of respect is certainly now a thing of the past.
The upshot for staff in a DO is now almost a daily routine of confrontation, intimidation and accusations of poor performance being directed towards them, for having the nerve to inform a manager they only wish to work their CONTRACTED hours. Our Union need to take the lead on this problem quickly as it is NOT just an isolated problem, it is effecting most DO's, especially post revision !

[fishtank]

One of the main reasons the overrunning deliveries procedure is now out of date is the huge increase in attendance calls and the massive variation in delivery span this brings with it.
Delivery to neighbour obviously has the potential to increase this.

When large packets were delivered by dedicated packet duties they were never subject to the same conditions,if a packet duty ran out of time they simply brought back the undelivered packets and very little was ever said.
That was because it was accepted that it's almost impossible to judge how long it takes to deliver packets so why should our members on park&loop duties who now have to deliver those packets be subject to intimidation and have to gaze into a crystal ball every day in an attempt to avoid the conduct code?

The procedure lays the responsibility of informing the manager of an ability/inability to work past their contracted hours at the feet of the OPG giving at least 24 hours notice.

This is back to front,the default position should be an acceptance by management that everybody is entitled to go home at their finish time...every day...and the onus should be on the manager to seek out volunteers or for volunteers to make themselves available.

The decision tree for a line manager to offer assistance says that the daily traffic should be a factor but this is meaningless unless the individual walk volume is counted,call rates are calculated and attendance calls are added to the mix and when all that is added together you still have to take into account types of delivery points and individual capability.

It also states that achievement of Individual Performance Standards are a factor although how the ability to prep 25 letters in a single minute in a one off test applies to an entire prep is beyond me.

Finally the statement that all decisions must be made on the basis of a clear expectation that once the OPG departs from the Delivery Unit they will be able to deliver all mail in the remaining duty time. Failure to complete delivery could be investigated and may result in a conduct code interview...is in my opinion a green light to bully,harass and intimidate members into either making a stupid mistake and not taking enough mail or taking too much and being forced to work over their time.

That isn't all that's wrong with the procedure but it's a start.

[lala]

Its some people in our DO that leave the same amount every day and ALWAYS go home early that annoy me.

[Bag of d2d]

When I complain to our union rep about the workload he just advises me to cut off. Our dom views us as being troublemakers if we suggest doing so and then the bullying/harassment process kicks in. I suspect any undelivered mail would be left until the following day and so it starts again. We need workloads that we stand a chance of completing, not this constant cause for conflict. It's about time we were treated with a little respect. It's 2012 not 1812, RM!

[fishtank]

Its some people in our DO that leave the same amount every day and ALWAYS go home early that annoy me.

Are you saying that your managers let members cut off and still go home significantly early?
No offence mate but in my experience i would find that hard to believe.
Managers are not always the sharpest but......

[Lincox]

Fish, where have you read that you have to give 24 hours notice? My copy only states that you must make the manager aware once you have completed all of your indoor work, bagged up and ready to go out on delivery. How would you know before you have completed the indoor tasks, as you would not know what volumes, attended calls etc etc are involved?

[lala]

Fish, where have you read that you have to give 24 hours notice? My copy only states that you must make the manager aware once you have completed all of your indoor work, bagged up and ready to go out on delivery. How would you know before you have completed the indoor tasks, as you would not know what volumes, attended calls etc etc are involved?

is the 24hours notice to say u cant work over ur time? its a bit different to cutting off.
still wrong though - should just be assumed anyway that u not working over ur hours.