absorbtion/summer lapsing

[music4essex]

Today started in our office, area rep down to talk about it with dom,
agreement was that if you don't have time to do it, bring it back.

1. having read through various strings I was led to believe that if you think you will not be able to deliver the lapsing part , you could tell lino/dom that you will not be able to complete.

2. do you take the lapsing out with you even though you know you will not complete the delivery?


scenario today I do only 3hr delivery in doms georoute fantasy, 1hr indoor work before going out on delivery.
usually my delivery on heavy days goes over the 3hr limit between 15-45mins.
With bank holiday my duty was going to go to time realizing this before I left the office, I told the lino I would take part of the lapsing, and if I had enough time would come back for the rest(reason I deliver down a main road and cannot just walk across.

at 12.20 just picked up last bag with my LWT and done a couple of houses and the dom pulls up in his car, he said i forgot the lapsing, I said i had not as I informed lino that I would pick it up if I had enough time, he said you have I said I have not as I have a pkt to bring back to office,dom replied I have to take it and bring it back

I finished at 13.15 cycled back to office with cut off and pkt left and dom/lino were both standing there I plonked it down it front of them at 13.31 which is my finish time as I start M/R time i filled in docket for the p759 took photo's of it and the time, I then said to the lino, did you tell the dom what I said in the morning that I took one side of the roads lapsing but not the other he said yes,
On sat i was off and a manager done my walk and left 75 letters first class in a box under my frame when this was mentioned this morning to lino it was swept under the carpet, I expect I will be done now for wilful delay or sent back to atosser cause I cannot peform the delivery span
Is there an agreement that states that absorbtion has to be taken out and done first.?
advice comments appreciated
Essex mum

I

[Himaggen]

I told the lino I would take part of the lapsing, and if I had enough time would come back for the rest

The agreement is that you inform your Line Manager that you believe that you may be unable to complete the allotted workload within your working hours and ask them what they would like you to do regarding any potentially undelivered mail. Your Line Manager is expected to respond with their instruction and you are expected to abide by that as long as it does not require you to work beyond your normal finish time.
On this occasion since you did not have a superseding instruction to the original one, (all lapsed mail was to be taken out and returned if undelivered), you have failed to act on the reasonable instruction of your Manager.

[bowie]

i was off on sat,back at work today mail evrewhere always the sat before the bank holiday

[music4essex]

Your Line Manager is expected to respond with their instruction and you are expected to abide by that as long as it does not require you to work beyond your normal finish time.
On this occasion since you did not have a superseding instruction to the original one, (all lapsed mail was to be taken out and returned if undelivered), you have failed to act on the reasonable instruction of your Manager.

I agree to what you said in principle, BUT in the cut off procedure it states if you take the mail out it is to be delivered which would have taken me over , I know this as I have done a 10wk delivery span looking at how long it takes me to do a delivery.

I never said I would not take it I said I would come back to deliver it if I had enough time, which i clearly did not.

So I had to walk with the mail in LWT knowing full well it would not be delivered for the next hour or so until I bought the mail back to the office. I mean what was the point the manager basically gave it to me knowing it would not be delivered.

If I had not taken any lapsing out then yes I have not done a reasonable request but I did take a quarter of it, and explained that there is a possibility that i would not, and especially as I had to bring a packet back to the offic which was the differnce to being able to deliver lapsing, it is a fine line, they the managers were ringing folks up to come and get there lapsing when i returned so some had not even told the managers they would do this, I did at least say something to cover my back.

I did ring area rep up after i went back with cut off but just wanted to see what you folks had to say before tomorrow before I go in thanks

[fishtank]

On this occasion since you did not have a superseding instruction to the original one, (all lapsed mail was to be taken out and returned if undelivered), you have failed to act on the reasonable instruction of your Manager.

Unfortunately that instruction would be considered to be in opposition to Royal Mail's own guidelines on overrunning delivery which state that...Once a delivery postperson leaves for delivery the clear expectation is that all mail must be delivered.

This would mean that acting on that instruction and bringing back undelivered mail could leave the member wide open to charges of unauthorised/unexcused delay at the whim of a manager's word.
That would mean it's not a reasonable instruction.
Members should follow the official guidance for overrunning deliveries at all times,if they do not think they have time to deliver mail they should not be suckered into taking it out with them on a nod and a wink that they can bring it back if they can't deliver it.
In case you hadn't noticed Himmagen,managers,in general are not to be trusted.

[Himaggen]

I understand that fishtank, but as far as I'm aware it is not the role of the OPG to make decisions on these matters. It is the Managers role to provide the instruction, in doing so they have guidelines to help guide them but they are not 'musts'.
Whilst it may be poor Management which provides an instruction which countermands another, it is unreasonable to expect the OPG to decide which instruction to follow but reasonable to expect them to follow their most recent.

[demon]

I told the lino I would take part of the lapsing, and if I had enough time would come back for the rest

The agreement is that you inform your Line Manager that you believe that you may be unable to complete the allotted workload within your working hours and ask them what they would like you to do regarding any potentially undelivered mail. Your Line Manager is expected to respond with their instruction and you are expected to abide by that as long as it does not require you to work beyond your normal finish time.
On this occasion since you did not have a superseding instruction to the original one, (all lapsed mail was to be taken out and returned if undelivered), you have failed to act on the reasonable instruction of your Manager.

What rubbish you just tell them your not working over and you will bring it back or will ring them 20 mins before you time is up to come and collect what you have left from your duty if you are to do the lappsing first

[Himaggen]

What rubbish you just tell them your not working over and you will bring it back or will ring them 20 mins before you time is up to come and collect what you have left from your duty if you are to do the lappsing first

Are you suggesting that the correct way of working is that an OPG provides all of the options for their Manager to choose.

An OPG who cannot accept/figure their hierarchical position within an organisation is no less destructive to Royal Mail than a poor Manager.

[TrueBlueTerrier]

Are you suggesting that the correct way of working is that an OPG provides all of the options for their Manager to choose.

Not but they certainly should question any instruction which is likely to cause them problems, or one that goes against guidelines. I was following orders is not, historically, a good defence even at a tribunal and especially if they were verbal not written.

An OPG who cannot accept/figure their hierarchical position within an organisation is no less destructive to Royal Mail than a poor Manager.

With all due respect Rubbish --- Yes a poor postie can be destructive, but to say that an OPG as described is as destructive as a poor manager is straight out of the Royal Mail approach to management. An employee who questions management is not automatically one who cannot accept the hierarchical system. Indeed in the Forces, one of the most rigid hierarchical systems there is, a good subordinate is seen as one who does not accept orders at face value but looks at the reasons behind them and questions them when needed.

You are in effect advocating an Autocratic style of management which should be consigned to the history bin in a company which uses such terms as "Our People" "The local Delivery Team" and "Joint Approach" - that is of course if its not just corporate speak for "Do what we say not what we do". The autocratic approach of management is far more destructive that an individual asking for clarification of an issue.

[Sharkeyes]

I have seen clear cases of bullying over this issue from managers who wait for most of the office to go out, then hang around the frame of the person who says that they can not complete their duty and the lapsing in the alloted time, intimidating him into doing it, when he has clearly said, that he will go over and doesn't want to.
I have had similar crap off them in the past.
Stand your ground, before you prep up. Get a witness to hear the argument and what the manager says to you.
At the end of the day, managers are paid to get the mail out of the office and show clear' on their shift report to their SOM.
You are NOT paid to do work for NOTHING!
In a nutshell, either you accept overtime if that is what you want or leave it to the DOM to make the decision as to what goes or stays... not you! That way you are covered as it is the DOM making the decision to delay mail and NOT you.

[music4essex]

Nothing was said to me today regarding the above , but a person is alledgedly going to be done for WDM.

Tomorrow If it is heavy I will either cut off/ or leave part of it in the frame with instructions in writing from management on what to do.

Today we had a MEETING WITH AREA REP AND MANAGEMENT REGARDING ISSUES IN OUR OFFICE AND BULLYING/HARRASSEMENT CAME UP ,

thanks for the comments
Essex mum

[DirtyHarry]

Yep, a really horrible company to have to slave for.

[Himaggen]

Are you suggesting that the correct way of working is that an OPG provides all of the options for their Manager to choose.

Not but they certainly should question any instruction which is likely to cause them problems, or one that goes against guidelines. I was following orders is not, historically, a good defence even at a tribunal and especially if they were verbal not written.

I'm fairly sure that a defence of I gave the Manager two options so its their problem would carry less weight.
Any defence would improve if you were to inform and discuss/question the options provided with a witness in attendance.

An OPG who cannot accept/figure their hierarchical position within an organisation is no less destructive to Royal Mail than a poor Manager.

With all due respect Rubbish --- Yes a poor postie can be destructive, but to say that an OPG as described is as destructive as a poor manager is straight out of the Royal Mail approach to management. An employee who questions management is not automatically one who cannot accept the hierarchical system. Indeed in the Forces, one of the most rigid hierarchical systems there is, a good subordinate is seen as one who does not accept orders at face value but looks at the reasons behind them and questions them when needed.

You are in effect advocating an Autocratic style of management which should be consigned to the history bin in a company which uses such terms as "Our People" "The local Delivery Team" and "Joint Approach" - that is of course if its not just corporate speak for "Do what we say not what we do". The autocratic approach of management is far more destructive that an individual asking for clarification of an issue.

Your entire response is based around your misunderstanding of what I said.
I''m not talking about clarifying an issue; there is a marked difference between discussing and questioning scenarios and advising OPGs in a forum to tell their Manager how it is going to be.
Do you actually think that good Managers will thrive in an environment where those over whom they have authority tell them what is happening.

[ElvisGaddafi]

If you don't want to go over your time and claim O/T, take out what you think you can deliver in the allotted time. Simple as that. Any mail left in the office is not your responsibility.

[PhilthyPhil]

How can you be starting summer absorption at the end of August/start of september? Ours ended last week.