Correct Procedure

[SexyLegs]

This is a hypothetical thread, please answer the thread if you know the answers only!

I was under the impression that if a RM employee gets dismissed there is a process that a DOM must adhere to before the dismissal can take place................for example, they should give verbal warning/s, followed up with written warning/s, then final written warning/s, all prior to a dismissal - is that right?

If you are Suspended for failing to follow a reasonable request, and subsequently that request is then adhered to under what circumstances can the DOM continue to keep you suspended, surly if the request is complied with there is no longer any case to answer to?

Anyone know the correct procedures?

[flaminmoses]

What have the union said?

[Bernardson]

You are corect there is a proceedure. If the DOM believes that allowing the said person back to work would be a H&S or security issue he is entitled to keep the suspension until the disciplinary hearing. There is a timetable and set of proceedures of how this should be done.
The issue you sight would not seem to fall into the above and it should be dealt with more amicabely.

[dvbuk55]

This is a hypothetical thread, please answer the thread if you know the answers only!

I was under the impression that if a RM employee gets dismissed there is a process that a DOM must adhere to before the dismissal can take place................for example, they should give verbal warning/s, followed up with written warning/s, then final written warning/s, all prior to a dismissal - is that right?

If you are Suspended for failing to follow a reasonable request, and subsequently that request is then adhered to under what circumstances can the DOM continue to keep you suspended, surly if the request is complied with there is no longer any case to answer to?

Anyone know the correct procedures?

Try your Branch officers, they should know the correct procedures and will be familiar with your case.

[BoltonPostie]

Did you bring this up at the appeal?
Was you summary dismissed for gross misconduct? i.e failure to follow a reasonable request?

[flaminmoses]

Did you bring this up at the appeal?
Was you summary dismissed for gross misconduct? i.e failure to follow a reasonable request?

surely a breach of procedure isnt something that falls under "you could have mentioned it at apeal".

[BoltonPostie]

Did you bring this up at the appeal?
Was you summary dismissed for gross misconduct? i.e failure to follow a reasonable request?

surely a breach of procedure isnt something that falls under "you could have mentioned it at apeal".

Why not? isn't that what an appeal is for to present new evidence or to question the dismissal.
Any rep worth his salt would be looking at a way of getting anybody off on a technicality or irregular procedure at an appeal.

[Red Robbo]

If you do not carry out a reasonable request you could be suspended from duty however following your suspension you may be asked to sign declaration that you will in future obey a reasonable instruction.

[stokes11eg]

If an offence is gross enough or overt enough, you can be sacked without all the usual 3 warnings etc. All an employer has to do is show that he has given you ample opportunity to 'come good; for want of a better term.
ACAS have a code of practice covering this subject, so you may be better going to them.

[IcanthelpthewayIam]

from the direct Gov Website

http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/employment/ ... g_10028114" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Disciplinary procedures: meetings and decisions



The second step in the disciplinary procedures is for your employer to arrange a meeting with you to discuss the issues they raised. You should be aware that this procedure is changing from 6 April 2009.


Arranging the meeting

After your employer has followed the first step in the statutory minimum disciplinary procedure and sent you a written letter setting out what has led them to consider disciplinary action, they should arrange a meeting.


The meeting (or 'hearing') must happen before any disciplinary action is taken. If your employer hasn't explained in the letter the reasons why they are disciplining you, they have to explain this before the meeting.

The meeting should:

•be arranged at a reasonable time for you and anyone else involved
•be in a private place (so there are no interruptions)
•be arranged so you get enough time to prepare

If you don't think you have enough time to prepare then ask your employer for more. There's no specific minimum amount of time that your employer must give but they should make sure you know what the meeting is for (and not just say 'come into my office for a chat').

Right to be accompanied

You have a right to take someone to the meeting with you. This can be a colleague or trade union representative. If you are not a union member, and no colleague is willing to go with you, you can ask to bring someone else. If this isn't something agreed in your contract, your employer can refuse.

Joining a trade union


Your companion can take notes and speak instead of you, but may not answer questions for you.

If your companion can't make the meeting, for example because of illness, your employer must postpone it by up to five days. If they refuse, you could consider making a claim to an Employment Tribunal (Industrial Tribunal in Northern Ireland). You can find out more about the right to be accompanied in section three of the Acas Code of Practice.
Acas Code of practice on disciplinary and grievance procedures Opens new window
Help with PDF files


Before the meeting

Before the meeting, your employer should normally give you copies of any written evidence. In all cases, you should be informed of the nature of the case against you. Your employer may let you question any witnesses during the meeting, but they do not have to. Your employer may choose not to reveal the identity of the witness. Your employer may also let you bring your own witnesses.

Prepare carefully, answering any points raised in the statement or further explanation from your employer. If you want you can write down what you want to say and read it out at the meeting.


During the meeting

At the meeting, the employer will explain the complaint and go through the evidence; you then put your side of the story.


You should:
•ask for copies of any notes of the meeting
•list the points you want to make
•at the meeting, listen to what your employer has to say, before giving your side
•remain calm, so you get your points over clearly


Not attending the meeting

If you can't attend the meeting (for example if you are off sick) your employer would be expected to rearrange the meeting at least once if possible. If you are still unable to attend then they can choose to hold the meeting in your absence. In this sort of situation you could try to send in a written statement or perhaps a representative who can explain your side of things.
More about the right to be accompanied (PDK, 327KB) Opens new window
Help with PDF files


Decision

Either at the meeting or shortly after, your employer should tell you their decision and the action they are going to take. In some cases if you raise a significant new fact or issue in the meeting your employer may break off the meeting to look into the issues. They should rearrange the meeting for a later date.

This may be done verbally, although it should be confirmed in writing depending on the reason for the disciplinary action. They must also tell you of your right to appeal their decision. The decision might be:



•no action
•verbal warning
•written warning
•final warning
•demotion
•dismissal

The outcome might also be anything else that could resolve the problem (for example an agreement to take part in mediation between yourself and a co-worker who you have had personal problems with).

Your company's disciplinary procedure should include how many verbal or written warnings are needed before a final warning or dismissal. You should be given a written warning, or if the warning was verbal a written confirmation of it, saying what it was for and how long it will remain in force.

Your employer is allowed to give any type of warning that they think is appropriate. For example in the case of theft or violence they might decide to go straight to a final warning - or even dismissal. Your employer should always try to act consistently, so if they would give others a verbal warning in a particular situation they shouldn't give you a final warning unless there are good reasons for doing so.

If you are given an official warning without an initial letter and meeting, you should appeal (and explain why). This might happen if your employer has treated a simple telling off as an official verbal warning.

Although the most common actions are warnings or dismissal, your contract may allow other penalties such as demotion, or suspension without pay. Your employer must not change your job description as a punishment, nor fine you, unless this is allowed by your contract.

[fishtank]

Some types of behaviour are so serious and so unacceptable, if proved, as to warrant dismissal without notice (summary dismissal) or pay in lieu of notice. It is not possible to construct a definitive list of what constitutes gross misconduct, and in any event all cases will be dealt with on their merits. However, the following examples show some types of behaviour which in certain circumstances could be judged to be gross misconduct.

 Theft
 Violence
 Harassment and bullying
 Abusive behaviour to customers
 Wilful Delay of mail
 Deliberate disregard of health, safety and security procedures or instructions
 Unauthorised entry to computer records
 Criminal acts against the Post Office or its employees
 Interfering with a witness to a Bullying & Harassment procedure case

Beware the one in red.
It's a "catch-all" charge which can be applied to almost anything.

[SexyLegs]

So the charge was 'failure to follow a reasonable request', which according to RM should be without pay but the OPG was paid in full until dismissal and how is the one in red going to cover that?

[fishtank]

So the charge was 'failure to follow a reasonable request', which according to RM should be without pay but the OPG was paid in full until dismissal and how is the one in red going to cover that?

RM no longer suspend without pay under any circumstances.
Summary dismissal means sacked without warning or normal contractual notice of termination,it has nothing to do with suspension,suspension is a precautionary act to protect the business from further breaches of conduct or security while a fact finding investigation is carried out which then can lead to summary dismissal.

As for this.
 Deliberate disregard of health, safety and security procedures or instruction

Almost everything you do at RM has implications on health,safety and security so refusing a reasonable request that can be tied to any of those three things could obviously be called..deliberate disregard...
That may include driving without a valid license and in their eyes refusing to remedy the situation which most likely comes under the umbrella of security procedures and instructions.
I'm not judging you,i'm just trying to show you possible thought processes managers take.
They may take a completely different route and focus on what they consider aggressive behaviour.

[SexyLegs]

So the charge was 'failure to follow a reasonable request', which according to RM should be without pay but the OPG was paid in full until dismissal and how is the one in red going to cover that?

RM no longer suspend without pay under any circumstances.
Summary dismissal means sacked without warning or normal contractual notice of termination,it has nothing to do with suspension,suspension is a precautionary act to protect the business from further breaches of conduct or security while a fact finding investigation is carried out which then can lead to summary dismissal.

As for this.
 Deliberate disregard of health, safety and security procedures or instruction

Almost everything you do at RM has implications on health,safety and security so refusing a reasonable request that can be tied to any of those three things could obviously be called..deliberate disregard...
That may include driving without a valid license and in their eyes refusing to remedy the situation which most likely comes under the umbrella of security procedures and instructions.
I'm not judging you,i'm just trying to show you possible thought processes managers take.
They may take a completely different route and focus on what they consider aggressive behaviour.

How was this case aggressive behaviour?, if that's the route they choose to take, and why is a decision taking close on 2 months, mid to late April was the appeal date, and still nothing, cannot possibly be deemed correct procedure can it?

[hantsman]

So the charge was 'failure to follow a reasonable request', which according to RM should be without pay but the OPG was paid in full until dismissal and how is the one in red going to cover that?

RM no longer suspend without pay under any circumstances.
Summary dismissal means sacked without warning or normal contractual notice of termination,it has nothing to do with suspension,suspension is a precautionary act to protect the business from further breaches of conduct or security while a fact finding investigation is carried out which then can lead to summary dismissal.

As for this.
 Deliberate disregard of health, safety and security procedures or instruction

Almost everything you do at RM has implications on health,safety and security so refusing a reasonable request that can be tied to any of those three things could obviously be called..deliberate disregard...
That may include driving without a valid license and in their eyes refusing to remedy the situation which most likely comes under the umbrella of security procedures and instructions.
I'm not judging you,i'm just trying to show you possible thought processes managers take.
They may take a completely different route and focus on what they consider aggressive behaviour.

How was this case aggressive behaviour?, if that's the route they choose to take, and why is a decision taking close on 2 months, mid to late April was the appeal date, and still nothing, cannot possibly be deemed correct procedure can it?

RM delay all the time, nothing new there, you seem to ask the same questions re the appeal.

Do not hold any hope because RM are dragging it out. Have you asked for a SAR request yet? You need to start taking some action IMHO