IHR questions

[uncle_k]

Hi folks ,
Great forum and i have read some very helpful stuff on here over the last few months.

I have an interview next week with my shift manager concerning IHR which Atos have recommended and to quote " Serious consideration is being given to " by RM .

In April 2010 i began suffereing from severe chest pains in my left side and all down my ribcage too. I was off work from April 2010 until January 2011. (with a period of Rehab between May and August 2010). Then from January 2011 until August 2011 i was at work after an initial 8 week rehab program. Increasing hours and light duties. With the understanding that at the end of each week the line manager dealing with my rehab would approach me to asses how i was coping and discuss what was best for the following week. (increasing my hours etc). On the first 2 weeks my hours increased despite my seeking the manager concerned out and explaining i was having difficulties and would like to spend a further week on the same hours and not increase. Only to be told oh , its too late i have already submitted your hours for next week to staff branch yesterday and you cannot go backwards on rehab. Sorry mate i assumed as i have not seen you you were doing ok . ????

Anyways to cut a very long tale as short as possible i struggled along every night until early August 2011 . Attending ATOS appointments being sounded out about IHR periodically by ATOS and RM (line manager ). Then in August 2011 on my GP's advice i went back off sick and am currently still off. I have seen the same ATOS Doctor twice and spoken to her on the phone twice over the past 6 weeks. The two face to face consultations. She made no attempt to examine me to asses my condition just asked me how i felt and what treatment i was recieving then what medication i am on. At the end of both of these appointments she tells me that she is of the opinion that i will not recover within 9 months and IHR with Lump sum is her recommendation. On Tuesday she rang me to tell me that her report is being submitted to RM that IHR with lump sum is applicable.

I am resigned to the fact that i will almost certainly being given IHR .. Its something i would prefer not to have but my health does come before RM as so many others on here have said also. And it has been comforting to read peoples experiences of life after RM , finding other work and moving on sounding much happier within themselves.

Anyways thank you for reading all of that and finally i will get around to asking what i came on here to do

Firstly i think i know the rough sort of figure i am looking at 14 years service and full time night shift should be around 12 pilon and 34 weeks pay ?

Secondly does anyone know how long the process takes? As i would prefer it to take as long as possible strange as that may sound.

Thirdly What is the appeal procedure for IHR ? And if i make it clear i wish to appeal will i have to accept the payment in the interim and hold it in my bank account?

Lastly as i said i have the interview with my Shift Manager to offer any reasons why IHR shouldnt be offered. the week after that i am on Annual leave for 3 week and 2 days. If they try to contact me during that period am i obliged to respond? Or as i am on leave am i entitled to wait to contact them when my Leave is over?

Thanks in advance and once again sorry for the war and peace style post ..

[AnotherLimey]

Have you not got your local union involved?

[uncle_k]

Local Union has been involved from the start . But there has been more if's and buts than actual answers as such ..

[keithposty]

what about adjusted duties

ihr
is not the be all and end all

i have adjusted duties as i threatened them with protected characteristics

what indoor oppertunities are there, public callers, dom support,locker work

have you had the delivery methods revision and resign yet

i am starting to get rather angry about royal mail and atos getting together to railroad people out the business

[fishtank]

What is the appeal procedure for IHR ?

9. APPEALS (Stage 2.1)

9.1 Right of Appeal

a) There is a right of appeal against the line manager’s decision and where the employee wishes to appeal he/she should inform the manager and confirm this in writing within five days of the written notification of the decision. At the same time the individual should state whether they will be seeking the support of their Union and confirmation from the Union of their support must be provided within a further seven working days.

b) Where the appeal is against termination of employment /retirement, the following provisions apply.

c) The appeal itself, with any supporting medical evidence, must be made before the day on which any notice to terminate the employee’s contract of employment is due to expire, or within 12 weeks from the date on which notice of termination of contract was given, whichever is later.

d) The employee, or the Union if involved, should inform the Line Manager immediately if it is decided not to proceed with the appeal.

e) All appeals will be concluded with an interview with the line manager who is due to make the decision based on the OHS advice.

f) These appeal procedures do not apply to cases of refusal to reinstate persons who have been retired on medical grounds and who assert that they have recovered; for cases of rejection on medical grounds for employment with Royal Mail Group; or for disciplinary cases (e.g. where an employee may be suspected of malingering).

9.2 Appeal Process

An appeal may be presented either by the employee or by their Trade Union acting on their behalf. An employee who wishes to appeal will be advised to seek the support of his or her Union but they are not obliged to do so. If, either at the outset or later, a Union decides not to take up his case, the employee is at liberty to proceed on their own behalf.

If an employee wishes to appeal on their own behalf (i.e. without the assistance of a Union) but is not sure what evidence is required to support the appeal, the appellant may ask the OHS to let their doctor know the types of evidence needed.

All appeals will in the first instance be referred via the appropriate Line Manager to the OHS for consideration of any medical evidence furnished by the employee in support of their case. Any medical evidence received under sealed cover from the appellant’s medical adviser will be forwarded unopened to the OHS. The OHS will normally communicate directly with the appellant’s medical adviser.

The OHS may, at their discretion, seek a second opinion.

The outcome of the appeal based on this additional medical evidence would be further OHS advice to line management on the basis of the alternatives set out at paragraph 7.2.1.

In the event that the appeal is dismissed, the appropriate Line Manager will inform the individual of the reasons for the conclusion. Where requested the OHS will inform the appellant’s medical adviser or, if appropriate, the medical adviser to the Union which acted on the appellant’s behalf.


9.3 Appeal to an Independent Specialist in Occupational Health (Stage 2.2)

An employee whose appeal for or against retirement on Ill Health grounds has been turned down can request that the case be referred to an independent specialist in occupational health. The employee must notify their intention in writing, either personally or through their Union, within 7 days of the date on which they were formally notified that their original appeal was unsuccessful.

The independent specialist will be appointed by Royal Mail Group (or associated employer). Where the independent specialist decides it is necessary, he/she may ask a specialist in the particular health condition of the appellant to support the independent specialist in making a decision.

It is expected that where the information supplied by the appellant’s own specialist conflicts with that supplied by the OHS, dialogue will be established between the independent specialist and the individual’s specialist in order to give the matter proper consideration. The employee will normally attend a hearing of the appeal in person and will be given a minimum of 48 hours notice of the date and venue. There may be a need for the individual to have a medical examination during the course of the appeal. Travel and subsistence expenses for attending the appeal will be met by Royal Mail Group.

The outcome from the appeal will be advice to line management in accord with the possible outcomes contained in 7.2.1 above.

At the conclusion of the appeal the appellant will be formally notified of the decision in writing, usually within 5 days.

No further appeal in respect of ill health retirement will be allowed unless arising from a new referral.

9.4 Successful Appeals Against Ill Health Retirement

Where the appeal is against Ill Health Retirement on medical grounds and it is upheld, the notice of retirement will be withdrawn and the appellant will continue to be employed under the terms of their existing contract.

Where the contract of employment has already expired, the appellant will be offered re-employment in his former grade and treated in all respects as if they had never been retired. If however the appellant does not return to duty on the date stipulated in the offer of re-employment and can give no acceptable reason for their absence, the offer will be withdrawn and Royal Mail Group will regard that it has discharged all of its obligations.

Any pension or lump sum payments made prior to re-employment must be repaid.


9.5 Successful Appeals for Ill Health Retirement

Where an employee’s appeal is for ill health retirement, it succeeds and the individual is under notice of retirement or has already been retired without immediate pension arrangements will be made to vary the terms of his or her notice accordingly. Any lump sum payment made prior to the successful appeal must be repaid.

[General Mannerheim]

what about adjusted duties

ihr
is not the be all and end all

i have adjusted duties as i threatened them with protected characteristics

what indoor oppertunities are there, public callers, dom support,locker work

have you had the delivery methods revision and resign yet

i am starting to get rather angry about royal mail and atos getting together to railroad people out the business

Royal Mails `standard` response is ....we have no indoor jobs for you that you can perform.....we are fully staffed and you are employed as a delivery postman...we do not agree with the Atos report that you can only do an indoor duty and we will have to send you back for another assessment....and we will keep on doing so until you accept IHR or we sack you under the attendance procedure.where is the w*****s gif?

[keithposty]

for a start you are not employed as a delivery postman but an opg, (operational postal grade)

simple response is you sign for a job when avaliable or on the resign, and they make adjusted duties

they tried exactly what you stated above with myself until i printed off an ET1 claim and shoved it under their noses

they ended up seing sense and realised i was not worth the trouble

sack under the attendance procedure, realy

DDA -protected characteristics-THEY CAN TRY

shame

[demon]

hi there i to could be in the same position as i had a really bad A.O.D AND BEEN LEFT WITH A 15% disabilty in my ankle and after a opparation find it to do a lot of walking but at the time of the accedent i was a full time van driver but when i came back after my opp the revision had taken place and job gone ive told them that i could do simler types of jobs but boss seems to think i have to revert back to a walking dutie which he knows i probably cannot do and hekeeps banging on about i.h.r . ive been told i can put in a claim for my accedent but the union have told me nowt or would this come with any offer of i.h.r payment. my accedent was allso regasterd as an industrial injury any help would be great

[dvbuk55]

What's the problem uncle k? That's a considerable sick record and if there is no sign of appreciable improvement in the next 9 months and you cannot return to work and you will have no pay what would you consider to be a reasonable solution to both problems ie you having no pay and RM having no employee fit for work?

[uncle_k]

dvbuk ,
I understand RM's stance considering my sick record (although in the 12 years prior to April 2010 i had not even come close to triggering a stage 1 warning. ) I have suffered from this complaint for a considerable time and it has seemed likely that IHR would become a reality at some stage. The issue is for me more about the timing of it ? The reason i was enquiring about the length of time it takes to process and if my being on Annual leave will hold it up for that 3 or four weeks longer.

I want to be back at work and not sat at home being paid or otherwise for doing nothing. I am based in a mail centre yet when i asked about amended duties i was told that there was nothing within the building that RM could offer me. keithposty you mentioned an ET.1 .. Could you elaborate on that for me if possible ?

A big thank to everyone who has replied

[keithposty]

WHEN YOU HAVE A CONDITION THAT HAS BEEN CONFIRMED AS FALLING WITHIN THE REMITS OF disability discrimination act
(now the equalties act 2010)

your illness that you are suffering from is discounted from the attendance (sickness procedure)

you are covered by a term called protected characteristics and if your employer ignores this then they can be prosecuted and an instant result as case proved in an employment tribunal claim.

your employer has to give you every opportunity to assist you in making reasonable adjustments.

if the employer states there are no duties etc then they have to justify that statement.

being an opg is not the same as a postman so all opportunities need to be explored including relocating to an office near to you with adaquate duties to fit your condition

what your rep have to say on this

you realy need to be talking to the legal and medical secretary or area safety rep on this as your office rep will prob only have limited knowledge on this matter

being sick is not a disease
it is a symptom of the job

[dvbuk55]

dvbuk ,
I understand RM's stance considering my sick record (although in the 12 years prior to April 2010 i had not even come close to triggering a stage 1 warning. ) I have suffered from this complaint for a considerable time and it has seemed likely that IHR would become a reality at some stage. The issue is for me more about the timing of it ? The reason i was enquiring about the length of time it takes to process and if my being on Annual leave will hold it up for that 3 or four weeks longer.

I want to be back at work and not sat at home being paid or otherwise for doing nothing. I am based in a mail centre yet when i asked about amended duties i was told that there was nothing within the building that RM could offer me. keithposty you mentioned an ET.1 .. Could you elaborate on that for me if possible ?

A big thank to everyone who has replied

If IHR is already on the table I would imagine a word in your DOMs ear could easily expedite the release, alternatively you could forego the leave I suppose.

[dvbuk55]

WHEN YOU HAVE A CONDITION THAT HAS BEEN CONFIRMED AS FALLING WITHIN THE REMITS OF disability discrimination act
(now the equalties act 2010)

your illness that you are suffering from is discounted from the attendance (sickness procedure)

you are covered by a term called protected characteristics and if your employer ignores this then they can be prosecuted and an instant result as case proved in an employment tribunal claim.

your employer has to give you every opportunity to assist you in making reasonable adjustments.

if the employer states there are no duties etc then they have to justify that statement.

being an opg is not the same as a postman so all opportunities need to be explored including relocating to an office near to you with adaquate duties to fit your condition

what your rep have to say on this

you realy need to be talking to the legal and medical secretary or area safety rep on this as your office rep will prob only have limited knowledge on this matter

being sick is not a disease
it is a symptom of the job

There is only the one grade now.

[uncle_k]

[/quote]

If IHR is already on the table I would imagine a word in your DOMs ear could easily expedite the release, alternatively you could forego the leave I suppose.[/quote]

I actually want this to take longer not speed up as such. As i have been waiting since early November for an appointment with the pain management clinic. The original letter quoted upto 6 months waiting list but i am also on the list for a short notice cancellation. As the criteria stated by ATOS is that i am not expected to recover within in the next 9 months i will have had whatever treatment the clinic see fit and even if it lasts 3 months . That would still be 3 months short of the 9 months that ATOS are certain in their opinion by (sitting near me and looking at her laptop.) i would not be fit to work. She may prove to be correct but on the other hand i could just as easily respond to the treatment from a more specialised medical practitioner rather than my GP who deals with a broader range of conditions.

The bottom line i suppose is that i know IHR is very likely and my health is a major concern to me. However i desperatly want to return to work. Changing shifts , offices etc would not be an issue for me if suitable duties can be identified.

I am planning to attempt to contact my area rep on Monday as having spoken to my union rep his experience is limited although i have to say he has been as helpful as he possibly could be.

[dvbuk55]

Sorry, I got the wrong end of the stick - I thought you wanted to go and was worried that your holidays would interfere with the process.
.