How are the National Talks progressing ?

[Cut Off King]

Has anyone got any up to date info on how the national talks are progressing ?

The London issues were put first and a strike averted all within two weeks, with national issues being next on the agenda.
However, dispite months of talks, nothing has changed.

What has been achieved ?

Have Mail Centre closures / revision issues been addressed ?
Have Delivery revisions / D.O. closures been fixed ?
Have talks resumed yet? or has XMAS break not ended for the top RM/CWU officials.

Are the CWU going to wait until RM put their plans into action before challenging them ?
As happened last time, waiting for RM to change the pension scheme, then saying "its too late, they've changed it. What can we do". Or over the modernisation plans - P&L / WCM / Sequence Machines -" Its too late, they've bought the machines and vans already...We'll just have to trust RM & work with them "

A little OFFICIAL communication from the top of the union wouldn't go a miss.

[Lincox]

Dave is now concentrating on Corporate responsibility, because Moya says he has to

[dvbuk55]

Dave is now concentrating on Corporate responsibility, because Moya says he has to

Dave who?

[DGP1]

The London issues were put first

I think you answered that yourself, as long as London is sorted then the rest of the country can do one (and only if London is not getting their way do they bring in the rest of the country to help them).

I know that looks like a London bashing posting but that's how the whole thing looks to us.

[blue1873]

Dave is now concentrating on Corporate responsibility, because Moya says he has to

Dave who?

Dave who ??? why none other than Trigger's mate
and Del Boy's brother, Dave who indeed ...you Plonker
(we'd probably be better off with the trio above)

[fishtank]

Things will be coming to a head shortly one way or another.

RM works the negotiation process the same way at every level from local D.O. to the boardroom....i
They paint the worst case scenario to the union,absolute nonsense like we're going to stop D2D altogether,no pay rise,no colleagueshare,massive compulsory redundancies,the business is bankrupt,no say in changes etc,etc...
The union throws it's arms up in horror and we demand negotiations.......so the union and management sits around the table to thrash out a deal....several months pass....several more pass.
Suddenly when everything looks bleak out they come with the deal...

A deal that's not very good but not quite as bad as scenario number one.
Three cheers for the union for saving us from destruction.
Three cheers for Royal Mail for finally seeing the light.
Everyone's a winner...or are they?...or have we been taken for mugs by a union that has to be seen to gain some concessions and an employer who knows rule number one of any negotiation process is always lead with your worst offer.
Does the union have any choice but to play along with this game?
At local level with the savings plans or at boardroom level.
Is there any way to break this game of slowly deteriorating terms and conditions?
Whether there is a deal on the table now or whether we have a couple of months of sabre rattling then a deal it's all getting rather predictable.

[dvbuk55]

The odd thing is the union bods don't see "the big picture", which happens to be a very close scenario to the one ft has painted. Either that or they are looking through a different window to the rest of us. They don't seem to see that to us our terms and conditions have eroded over the years, the unions place in the scheme of things has become less influential to both its members and to Royal Mail - who by and large lead them round by the nose, feeding them whatever statistics suits and the union then pass on the dire message to the troops. As for a union official of Wards standing being aware of "corporate responsibility" and more importantly being swayed by it is laughable. The CWU are not members of RMs Board and are not responsible for any corporate business.

[Cut Off King]

The odd thing is the union bods don't see "the big picture", which happens to be a very close scenario to the one ft has painted. Either that or they are looking through a different window to the rest of us. They don't seem to see that to us our terms and conditions have eroded over the years, the unions place in the scheme of things has become less influential to both its members and to Royal Mail - who by and large lead them round by the nose, feeding them whatever statistics suits and the union then pass on the dire message to the troops. As for a union official of Wards standing being aware of "corporate responsibility" and more importantly being swayed by it is laughable. The CWU are not members of RMs Board and are not responsible for any corporate business.

Perhapse they do see the same picture as we do, but choose not to do anything about it

[Martin Walsh]

Everyone can see the same picture , however if you have never been involved in serious negotiations, then maybe you need to take a reality check. Negotations don't mean that whatever one side says be that the CWU or Royal Mail that they get everything they want as that would not be Negotations that would be surrender.

Equally it is very easy for people who do not understand the issues and have strong opinions about the direction the union should take but know they have no responsibility to achieving that direction to criticise and shout betrayal from afar.

There is not another business in the UK which is facing the problems which Royal Mail are. If a private company then we would be in serious trouble as we owe more than the company is worth. There is a cash flow problem with a. 7 billion turnover and a very small operating profit mainly down to assets being sold and GPS that would be concerning form most business.. On top of that revenue is falling combination of the recession and DSA. In addition there has been no decision by the EU on state aid and Camerons veto in Europe might have put that in jeopardy and if so remember Royal Mail have no money to pay the pension deficit past May. There have been a lot of talks on pensions and with of com.

So it is important that people when they comment on what is happening does so knowing the background. it's very easy for posters on here to dismiss the above because they have no responsibility in resolving those issues , the union has to deal with them.

Now in terms of the typical anti London posts well London balloted for strike action if some of you got off your arses and walked the walk instead of talking the talk all the time then you would do the same. Don't criticise members who got big yes votes and got for the first time ever an agreement which lays the way for everyone else on no compulsary redundancies.

In regards to the date of the 16th January there is a joint divisional and pec meeting next Monday. All divisional reps have to do a report on their division and there is now a pro forma which details information on units which has to be completed by Monday.

The reality is that Royal Mail's business plan is not working and needs to be changed. Through Negotations or a row.

[fishtank]

In addition there has been no decision by the EU on state aid and Camerons veto in Europe might have put that in jeopardy and if so remember Royal Mail have no money to pay the pension deficit past May.

I wish you would stop whipping the members up into a frenzy over the pension deficit.
It is simply not true that RM do not have the money to pay the pension deficit.
There is a £1 billion escrow established as security for the Royal Mail Pension Plan (£850 million funded principally from the Mails Reserve, and £150 million funded from Royal Mail Group resources);
At last accounts this has grown to £1.2Billion.
It's primary function was to protect the pension fund against just such situations to allow RM to extend the funding arrangements.
The real story is that RM don't want that money used to prop up the pension fund,they want it all to themselves to fund the modernisation programme going forward which is the real thing that is bankrupt despite stealing our colleagueshare money to prop it up.
Royal Mail thought they would have their hands on that money by April...as the Application for state aid clearly shows.

(55) Finally, it is planned that at 31 March 2012 the existing escrow arrangements established by RMH and RMG in March 2007 (as explained in paragraph 3) will be terminated and the funds held in escrow will be released to RMH and RMG respectively.

Now they are panicking because it may be used for what it was intended to be...a pension safety net.

[dvbuk55]

It's a fallacy that everyoner sees the same picture because the aims and aspirations are different from union officials to union members and there's the rub. The CWU has been increasingly drawn into the corporate culture of RM and lost sight of its real aim which is to defend its members. If the union actually listened to the members rather than take on board the jaundiced view perpetrated by full time union officials. You are right dingo in saying the likes of me are not responsible for negotiating had I been I wouldn't have touched BT 2010 with a very long barge pole. It isn't working, people like me knew it wouldn't work and people like you advocated it, now who would be right?

[Cut Off King]

So it is important that people when they comment on what is happening does so knowing the background.

Thats the point, Unless CWU HQ tell us exactly whats going on behind closed doors, then we can all only speculate.

By the time that an official LTB. comes out, the talkings over and the deals have been done.

And as for Walking the walk, well, been there & done that ! ( and I don't mean just had the day shopping, I mean maning the picket line for long hours in all weathers )

[dvbuk55]

So it is important that people when they comment on what is happening does so knowing the background.

Thats the point, Unless CWU HQ tell us exactly whats going on behind closed doors, then we can all only speculate.

By the time that an official LTB. comes out, the talkings over and the deals have been done.

And as for Walking the walk, well, been there & done that ! ( and I don't mean just had the day shopping, I mean maning the picket line for long hours in all weathers )

Been on every picket line and supported every strike both local and national for the last 22 years, regardless of whether I thought it was justified or not. I believe union business was more open then and less of the cloak and dagger and we know what's best for you - in recent years it seems more like what's best for RM due to their lack of money, pension deficit, money spent on new machinery, vehicles, modernisation and statistics that seem to always highlight the current situation.

[DGP1]

Now in terms of the typical anti London posts well London balloted for strike action if some of you got off your arses and walked the walk instead of talking the talk all the time then you would do the same. Don't criticise members who got big yes votes and got for the first time ever an agreement which lays the way for everyone else on no compulsary redundancies.

And that alone shows the difference between London and the rest of us plebs................but then that's probably our fault too, for not being in London

[dvbuk55]

Now in terms of the typical anti London posts well London balloted for strike action if some of you got off your arses and walked the walk instead of talking the talk all the time then you would do the same. Don't criticise members who got big yes votes and got for the first time ever an agreement which lays the way for everyone else on no compulsary redundancies.

When you say "lays the way for everyone else on no compulsory redundancies" - is it a NATIONAL AGREEMENT or merely a London Division Agreement and the rest are going to have to ballot to enjoy the same or take their chance on being forced out due to time/travel constraints - as with most things this is a very limited agreement and I would suggest tailored to London.