rep needs help

[happy]

hope someone can help me out here ?
i have been doing a union one college couse but now they are refusing to let me go unless i take it as my day off or take it as unpaid can they do this ?
i think a read some were that they could not do this that they had to release me with pay.

[keithposty]

well yes
RELEASE WITH PAY
i take it you gave your dom the release form with pay
is this at alvescot

days release is news to me

normally a weeks resident at the college

and over three weeks also ??????

ARE WE TALKING ONE DAY A WEEK RELEASE

please tell me more and what area are you in

[happy]

am doing the union one course though a colloge up here and its one day a week for ten weeks.
have been going for 3 weeks now anyway so only 7 weeks to go.
forgot to say its a tuc course and give two months notice

[keithposty]

IS IT YOUR DOM SAYING THEY WILL NOT PAY YOU AND HAS HE GIVEN A REASON

[happy]

yes its my dom thats saying this and wants to talk to me about it on monday so am trying to get as much info as i can.
he says that they dont have to pay me

[keithposty]

DID THE BRANCH SECRETARY SIGN OFF THE COURSE SAYING YOU WILL BE ATTENDING

[happy]

yes he did thats why i am a bit lost as to why he is doing this not like this has just popped up

[keithposty]

tell your dom to frack off then

your branch is paying royal mail for your release

you being a new rep,
he is trying to take advantage

i am angry

so he wants to be paid twice does he

contact your area rep or branch secretary for a dressing down

[happy]

thanks keithposty
thats what i thought to dont suppose you no were i can get anything written down in black and white do yuo thank you for all the help

[keithposty]

as stated

contact your area rep or branch secretary

they will give you all the info

our paid release is part of the ir frame work

another poster will post it up

but use your branch

that is what it is there for

AN LTB WAS PUT OUT A WHILE AGO

NO DOUBT SOME ONE WILL DIG IT OUT

[fishtank]

I'm not 100%...it's been a while but i think paid release for day release courses cover the first 5 days...after that it's unpaid.
If your Branch doesn't know try lwakeman@cwu.org, Education and Training Department Tel: 020 8971 7441.

This is a list of what's paid and unpaid.

ULR Union Learning Reps Part 1 (Basic - 5 Day Course ) Paid Leave
Union Learning Reps Part 2 (Basic - 5 Day Course ) Paid Leave
Information, Advise & Guidance (AIG) for ULR's (Up to NVQ 4) Paid Leave
Union Skills for Union Learning Reps Unpaid Leave

H&S CWU Health & Safety. Stage I - (All H&S Reps) Paid Leave
CWU Health & Safety. Stage II - (Area H&S Reps) Paid Leave
CWU Health & Safety. Stage II - (Unit H&S Reps) Paid Leave
CWU Health & Safety. Stage III - (Area H&S Reps) Paid Leave
CWU Health & Safety. Stage III - (Unit H&S Reps) Paid Leave
CWU Occupational Health (5 Days) Paid Leave
TUC Occupational Health & Safety Wk 1 (All H&S Reps) Paid Leave
TUC Occupational Health & Safety Wk 2 (All H&S Reps) Paid Leave
TUC Occupational Health & Safety Wk 3 - (Unit H&S Reps) Paid Leave
TUC Occupational Health & Safety Wk 3 - (Area H&S Reps) Paid Leave
TUC Occupational Health & Safety Wk 4 - (Unit H&S Reps) Paid Leave
TUC Occupational Health & Safety Wk 4 - (Area H&S Reps) Paid Leave
H&S Refresher Course Paid Leave

I.R. Introductory Postal Agreements & Procedures/Engineering Paid Leave
Union Skills. Part I Paid Leave
Union Skills. Part II Paid Leave
Union Skills. Part III Paid Leave
Advance Union Skills. Part I Paid Leave
Advance Union Skills. Part II Paid Leave
Advance Union Skills. Part III Paid Leave
One-Day Equality & Diversity Training/Seminar Paid Leave
Two-Day Equality & Diversity Training/Seminar (N.I) Paid Leave
Bullying & Harassment Paid Leave
Equal Rights in the CWU Part 1 Paid Leave
Equal Rights in the CWU Part 2 Paid Leave
Equal Opportunities Paid Leave
MTSF School. Paid Leave
College Training (One-Day-Per-Week) Weeks 1 - 5 Paid Leave
College Training (One-Day-Per-Week) Week 6 and ongoing Unpaid Leave
Educational Skill's & Dev. (Diploma, BSc, Access Cert, etc.) Unpaid Leave
Postal Organising Ambassadors 1 Unpaid Leave
Postal Organising Ambassadors 2 Unpaid Leave
Domestic Violence Course Unpaid Leave
3 Day "Chairing Meetings" Course Unpaid Leave
Disability Champions Unpaid Leave
Environmental Reps Unpaid Leave
Branch Secretaries Training Unpaid Leave
Financial Secretary / Treasurer Training Unpaid Leave
Tutor Training Unpaid Leave
Women in the CWU Paid Leave
Diploma in Contempory Trade Unionism Unpaid Leave
TUC Employment Law Unpaid Leave
BSc Trade Union & Labour Studies Unpaid Leave
BSc Computing Science Unpaid Leave
Employment Law School Paid Leave
Pension School Paid Leave
Legal Services School Paid Leave
Indoor School Paid Leave
Outdoor School Paid Leave
Parcels School Paid Leave
CH&D School Paid Leave
ET Panelists Course Paid Leave
3 Day Negotiating Skills Unpaid Leave
Information Technology Unpaid Leave
Communication & Media Skills Unpaid Leave
Retire Members Unpaid Leave
2-Day Grievance & Discipline Unpaid Leave
Discussion Leaders Unpaid Leave
Leading in Organisation Unpaid Leave
2-Day Womens Assertiveness Unpaid Leave
Youth 1-Day Equality & Diversity Unpaid Leave
Youth Weekend Schools Unpaid Leave
CWU Rehabilitation Officer Paid Leave
Union Recruitment Paid Leave

[keithposty]

INTERESTING

IVE DONE THE 5 DAY AGREEMENTS AND PROCEDURES COURSE AND EMPLOYMENT LAW WHICH WAS PAID RELEASE

THE EMPLOYMENT LAW WAS OVER SIX MONTHS

[Dorset Plodder]

Keith.. I thought you'd discovered how to work your CapsLock...But it appears to have got stuck on again!
Good Info as usual FT. How long do you reckon you could get off...with paid leave if you attended most of these courses? And do they come off your Annual Leave Entitlement?

[brothermagrew]

Union representatives who wish to attend TUC courses in working time should first ask their employer for time off with pay. The Trade Union and Labour Relations (Consolidation) Act 1992 and the Safety Representatives and Safety Committee Regulations 1977 give accredited union and safety representatives a legal right to reasonable time off with pay to attend courses approved by the TUC or their union. Guidance towards establishing what constitutes reasonable time off can be found in the ACAS Code of Practice (http://www.acas.org.uk/media/pdf/l/q/CP03_1.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;).

Representatives who find difficulty in obtaining paid time off to attend TUC courses should seek assistance from their senior union representative or full time union officer.

NECESSARY TRAINING PCS safety rep Sue Catten won a similar tribunal case in 2001. She had been refused time off to attend the TUC Stage 3 certificate health and safety course by her employer, the Hackney office of the Benefits Agency.

The tribunal concluded time off should have been granted, and that the "business case" test was not appropriate in the circumstances. It ruled the appropriate criterion was whether attendance at the course was reasonable to allow the representative to carry out her health and safety duties (Hazards 74).

The tribunal also rejected the suggest from her management that working in an office should minimise the extent of training she could reasonably seek, pointing out that office environments had given rise to repetitive strain injuries, stress and risk of violence. She had already completed TUC stage 1 and 2 safety courses.

The tribunal also rejected the Benefit Agency's contention that it was not "necessary" to give Catten time off because the certificate course was available as an evening as well as a day release course. It said the intention of the regulations was to make time off during work the norm for safety reps' training.

• Miss S Catten v The Department of Social Security, case no. 2200805/2000, London Central Employment Tribunal, 9-12 January 2001.

PART-TIME WORKER, FULL-TIME PAY A 1999 Employment Appeal Tribunal ruled that a part-time worker who attended a full-time union-organised health and safety training course, was entitled to be paid on a full-wages for the duration of the course.

Mrs Davies, who worked 22 hours per week for the council's meals on wheels service, was elected as a GMB health and safety representative. She attended two five-day training courses organised by the GMB, one a health and safety course and the other an induction course. She was paid only in accordance with her usual part-time hours, despite both courses being full-time, running to 40 hours and 32.5 hours respectively.

Backed by the GMB, she pursued a tribunal claim arguing that she should have received full-time pay from her employer, in line with her full-time colleagues who also attended the training courses. The case was lost at an original tribunal, but won on appeal.

The Employment Appeal Tribunal followed a key European Court of Justice decision, Arbeiterwohlfahrt Der Stadt Berlin v Botel [1992] IRLR 423.

Importantly, the Employment Appeal Tribunal also rejected the suggestion made by the original tribunal that union-organised health and safety courses are only of benefit to the employees involved and the trade union, and not the employer.

• Mrs P Davies v Neath Port Talbot County Borough Council [1999] IRLR 769. Thompsons Solicitors report


"REASONABLE" REQUESTS A Employment Appeal Tribunal in April 2003 ruled that UNISON health and safety rep William Duthie had a right to training that was "reasonable in all the circumstances," rather than to training that is "necessary." The EAT overturned an earlier employment tribunal ruling where Bath and North East Somerset Council claimed successfully that the training was not necessary. The EAT said the original tribunal has misinterpreted the requirements of the ACoP to the safety reps regulations.


• Duthie v Bath and North East Somerset Council [2003]. EAT/0561/02 RN.

RMT safety rep Denys Rama was told initially he would be given paid leave to attend a TUC stage 2 health and safety course, but later withdrew the offer. Denys attended the course in his own time and then claimed for loss of earnings at a tribunal.

The tribunal found in favour of the employer, saying that stage 2 training was not "necessary" for the rep to be able to perform his functions. However, an RMT-backed appeal over-ruled this judgment. It said the original tribunal had misinterpreted the law in placing the emphasis on what the employer felt to be "necessary" rather than what was "reasonable" (Hazards 61).

• Denys Rama v South West Trains, case no. CO/310/96, High Court London, 5 November 1997.

There are other useful precedents. Pork Farms was found by a tribunal to have unreasonably denied a safety rep time off to attend a two day TUC course on repetitive strain injuries. It rejected the company's claim that the training was irrelevant (Pearson v Pork Farms).

[Dorset Plodder]

Cheers for the info Brother. So in theory there should be no restrictions on a Part Timer Running for a Local rep, and being released for Training? And if that that training is authorised they would be treated the same as any Full Timer on the same course?

In your experience have you found the management less willing to release part Timers for Training.... bearing in mind most of RM consider them 2nd Class Employees?