Change

[Martin--Walsh]

Lovejoy and Dave is right , how do you change the election process to 1 ensure more members vote and second to ensure that the slates which exist which every Branch plays ensure that the best candidates get elected.

First and foremost I do believe that the current PEC members should have to do a report on what they have done in the previous year. This should include who they have work to in CWU HQs , what jobs and roles they have performed. For example there are a lot of what people would call non sexy jobs which are still important to the future for example. PEC members are dealing with the locker bank trail which is a new product which is based on intially lockers in sations where Royal Mail will deliver to station lockers for communters to pick up on way home or data capture trail where SAT NAV companies want Royal Mail postman and women to capture new devlopments etc. Or in fact those who represent reps on national appeals or on a range of other issues. The NEC role was also to sit on finance committees , organising and education committees etc.

A lot of the PEC also attend the divisonal committees which they are tagged too as well as attend membership meetings or committee meetings where they are requested to from the Branch. I know some executive members who do get frustrated because some who were previously divisional reps and dealing with disputes and high profile issues now have to wait to get work allocated by the national officers. Of course the work which is normally allocated is not normally negotiating issues but overseeing trails , new products etc. The Postal Executive do a lot more than attend meetings with the officers and make amendments or vote on policies but the membership is oblivious to what they actually do which cannot be right.

In terms of the issue of NEC/ PEC pay , the debate needs to be seen in this contact. The NEC/PEC is made up of different pay rates now , you have engineers , ex divsional reps , LAs , Postal Officers and Postmen , women. You also have the fact that anyone who lives outside the home counties can claim £95 per night everytime they are at CWU HQs whereas someone who lives in London or Peterbrough can claim just £15 per day. Remember Postal Executive members cannot claim overtime from their office and there is an inbalance of who is recieving subsistance money and who is not. Personally I believe that the issue of PEC PAY does need to be sorted as it is a barrier to getting the right people elected. Why would you if you were in Southend as a rep earning 15 hours per week SA in your mail centre go to CWU headquarters and lose all that money. Whereas an indivdual from outside of the home counties can claim up to 5 x £95 per week.

So I am in the camp I want to change things. For years I was involved in the North / South slates and we moved away from that conflict. This year we even cleared with the London Branch`s of not supporting all the London candidate for the NEC election as it would have looked like we were trying to control the NEC. We also supported candidates from Scotland , Newcastle , Covertry , Peterbrough , Romford and Plymouth.

Personally I would have supported Dave if he had stood as well. It is important to understand if you want change then Branch`s need to push that change in a way which builds support. Some of us wrote a report earlier in the year taking the union forward and the fact is that CWU HQs central services have remained intact without hardly any reduction and the elected people ie the NEC who are meant to hold Billy and co to accoutn have been reduced , that cannot be right.

So whilst I enocurage all to vote , the debate must continue after the election on how does the union restore the trust of the membership throughout the UK.

[fishtank]

Why would you if you were in Southend as a rep earning 15 hours per week SA in your mail centre go to CWU headquarters and lose all that money.

I'm not entirely sure that a rep earning 15hrs a week SA is someone i would like to see anywhere near headquarters Martin and if taking a pay cut would be enough to stop him/her...i'm quite happy for them to stay where they are.

As far as subsistence is concerned i would have no problems with a system that reimbursed NEC/PEC members for actual out of pocket expenses backed up by receipts rather than across the board payments that are seen by some as a "bonus".
The union simply cannot afford to hike up NEC/PEC members wages to management levels unless cuts are made to the numbers and that will impact on the quality of member representation.
I don't want PEC members financially disadvantaged by the role but equally and probably more importantly i don't want the role to attract people for the wrong reasons.
If there are anomalies in the subsistence arrangements...let's address them rather than institute what the members will see as another layer of overpaid CWU management.

[Martin--Walsh]

Sorry when I was making the example of the Southend Official I meant that idivdual would be working on the floor within the mail centre on OPG work after his duty has finished. When he then went to work at CWU HQs of course he cant perform SA and therefore loses the opportunity of working any overtime. Whereas someone who is in reciept of the nightly subsistance and shares a flat with a group of others in or around wimbledon will be advantaged.

Now I do believe there can be a fair way found which does not mean people are disadvantaged. Of course it would have to be accountable to members. This is not to advantage indivduals standing or serving on the PEC , it would be designed to not disadvantage them for working outside of their parent office and normally working either in CWU HQs or in other regions.

Like I said if your an engineer on the PEC you could be on anything from £30,000 to £45 000 , if your a divsional rep you could be on anything from £28 000 , if your a postal officer you would be on different wage and if your a postman you would be on a postman wage. Some recieve £95 per night subsitance if you travel normally outside of the home counties but Peterborough falls into that catogary , others recieve from £10 to £15 daily subsistance. Others cover a national officer when that officer is on leave and recieve that salary for that period. So in short we have a complete array of payments which in my view discourage talented indivduals from standing from all over the UK. Some do not like the idea of having to be in London away from their families for 4 or 5 nights per week , others do not want to leave their office where they may do opg overtime in their parent office and then be financially disadvantaged by then having to work from Wimbledon.

There was a PEC member a few years ago who resigned mid term becasue he was losing too much money because he could perform his SA slot in his office in line with his turn becasue he was working on behalf of the members on the PEC. That PEC member was in my opinion a sad loss to the PEC and a wake up call. In the same way there are discussions on Regional Secretary`s pay there has to be the same on the PEC.

However it must be open and must be expained and the decision of annual conference or the new style decision of briefing.

[scooter]

I think both Martin and fishtank both have relevant points - I lean to Fish. I have known a PEc member who has been on full time duties for some years who would have earned a lot more money - many thousands. Some of us think he's mad - he say's - "you pay your money - you take your choice!"

A couple of things I don't get is why would anyone book 5x£95 on a regular basis? Anytime I go 2 wimbledon there r very few people around monday morning or all day friday! And I reckon much of the work can be done from home base - (their local branch not the DIY store). Also what's the £15 a day for? Much more than anyone working for RM will get!

Also, I am hearing disturbing things about how some mileage is being booked and I aint mentionin names but I reckon martin should have a look at one or 2 of the geographical list he's supportin - I'll say no more than that.

Most important is things are open and transparent - perhaps a breakdown of what individuals book should be published - now that would be self policing.

[BPeters]

I like this its intresting

Where was your grandmother born Martin?

[Martin--Walsh]

I like this its intresting

Where was your grandmother born Martin?

County Waterford !!

[BPeters]

Like it Martin seem like a good lad to me

[gb93]

So if the NEC & PEC jobs get a big pay rise we will have more principled hard working honest representatives looking after the interests of the ordinary member 1st
Yeah give them different pay negotiations or let them set their own pay rises that will get the cream in the job

[davidwilshire]

Lovejoy and Dave is right , how do you change the election process to 1 ensure more members vote and second to ensure that the slates which exist which every Branch plays ensure that the best candidates get elected.

First and foremost I do believe that the current PEC members should have to do a report on what they have done in the previous year. This should include who they have work to in CWU HQs , what jobs and roles they have performed. For example there are a lot of what people would call non sexy jobs which are still important to the future for example. PEC members are dealing with the locker bank trail which is a new product which is based on intially lockers in sations where Royal Mail will deliver to station lockers for communters to pick up on way home or data capture trail where SAT NAV companies want Royal Mail postman and women to capture new devlopments etc. Or in fact those who represent reps on national appeals or on a range of other issues. The NEC role was also to sit on finance committees , organising and education committees etc.

A lot of the PEC also attend the divisonal committees which they are tagged too as well as attend membership meetings or committee meetings where they are requested to from the Branch. I know some executive members who do get frustrated because some who were previously divisional reps and dealing with disputes and high profile issues now have to wait to get work allocated by the national officers. Of course the work which is normally allocated is not normally negotiating issues but overseeing trails , new products etc. The Postal Executive do a lot more than attend meetings with the officers and make amendments or vote on policies but the membership is oblivious to what they actually do which cannot be right.

In terms of the issue of NEC/ PEC pay , the debate needs to be seen in this contact. The NEC/PEC is made up of different pay rates now , you have engineers , ex divsional reps , LAs , Postal Officers and Postmen , women. You also have the fact that anyone who lives outside the home counties can claim £95 per night everytime they are at CWU HQs whereas someone who lives in London or Peterbrough can claim just £15 per day. Remember Postal Executive members cannot claim overtime from their office and there is an inbalance of who is recieving subsistance money and who is not. Personally I believe that the issue of PEC PAY does need to be sorted as it is a barrier to getting the right people elected. Why would you if you were in Southend as a rep earning 15 hours per week SA in your mail centre go to CWU headquarters and lose all that money. Whereas an indivdual from outside of the home counties can claim up to 5 x £95 per week.

So I am in the camp I want to change things. For years I was involved in the North / South slates and we moved away from that conflict. This year we even cleared with the London Branch`s of not supporting all the London candidate for the NEC election as it would have looked like we were trying to control the NEC. We also supported candidates from Scotland , Newcastle , Covertry , Peterbrough , Romford and Plymouth.

Personally I would have supported Dave if he had stood as well. It is important to understand if you want change then Branch`s need to push that change in a way which builds support. Some of us wrote a report earlier in the year taking the union forward and the fact is that CWU HQs central services have remained intact without hardly any reduction and the elected people ie the NEC who are meant to hold Billy and co to accoutn have been reduced , that cannot be right.

So whilst I enocurage all to vote , the debate must continue after the election on how does the union restore the trust of the membership throughout the UK.

Thanks for the vote of confidence Martin.

In 2003 my branch was the only one in the South West that supported the candidate for change at that time namely Dave Ward. I had been on the PEC for a year then and had seen how John Keggie had lost the support of that body. During 2002/03 there were some fierce debates on the PEC none more so than the ROMEC JV debate where seven PEC members (myself included) voted against the proposals.

Since that time though I beleive we have heard a lot of rhetoric (my favourite is "we need an open an honest debate on this matter") but there have been hardly any policies made that can be considered progressive. I dont expect you to agree with me but I have to say it is dissapointing that a DGS(P) that stood for so much has delivered so little.

I firmly beleive that some of the people I respected on the PEC at that time have become stale and lost direction.

When we talk about debate it strikes me that debate is encouraged until you disagree with the person in question then you are accused of being negative. This has had the effect of actually curtailing debate and of course Dave then personalises the matter. This is not a situation you will have experienced as you are always in effect promoting the same position as Dave. Not a criticism as strangely enough I can see why you do this as he has obvioulsy been a sort of mentor to you in the same way we've all had mentors.

In relation to policies I fundementally disagree with what is now being badged again as Industrial Democracy and Dave was really weak on these points at Conference. I also fundementally disagree with the PEC being paid a similar wage to that of Div Reps. Having a PEC member who is from a driving grade being paid the rate for that job, or one on nights being paid the that rate is one thing, but being paid more is another.

What I will say though is that at least you have made your views clear about why you think they should be paid. I dont agree with them but this was the sort of debate that should have occurred at Conference rather than just a mad rant from Dave that bore no relevance to the actual matter being proposed.

Does paying people more mean you will get the right people for the job? You use Div Reps as an example. I cannot remember during my time when Divisional Reps contributed so little during debate. Apart from you, Mark, Chris Webb on occasions and maybe "T" none of the others seem to have any opinion at all on any matter. Im informed that not one question was asked by a Div Rep about the recent London settlement. What is actually happening is that Div Reps are being used in my view to push the HQ agenda at all costs.

The next two years are crucial to the type of Union we have in the future. I hope Dave changes direction but am not optimistic. What I do know is that my Branch and the members in Bristol have always had an opinion but have always supported the national Union when push comes to shove. We oppossed the rolling strike action tactic at Conference in 2009 because we believed a national attack from the employer needed to be met with a national response straight away. We then went out however and supported both London and Scotland.

By the way I still say that we were right and an early national strike would have meant members in London, Scotland, Bristol, Ipswich, Plymouth and elsewhere not having lost so much money. We also went out and did the work following the last Conference about the matter of compulsory redundancies.

When Dave losses the support of Branches like mine he really needs to take a long hard look at himself.

During the next two years the Bristol members and Branch will continue to have opinions and needless to say some of these will not be the same as yours. During this time though lets have a real debate and not just pretend to.

[Davie J]

Sorry when I was making the example of the Southend Official I meant that idivdual would be working on the floor within the mail centre on OPG work after his duty has finished. When he then went to work at CWU HQs of course he cant perform SA and therefore loses the opportunity of working any overtime. Whereas someone who is in reciept of the nightly subsistance and shares a flat with a group of others in or around wimbledon will be advantaged.

Now I do believe there can be a fair way found which does not mean people are disadvantaged. Of course it would have to be accountable to members. This is not to advantage indivduals standing or serving on the PEC , it would be designed to not disadvantage them for working outside of their parent office and normally working either in CWU HQs or in other regions.

Like I said if your an engineer on the PEC you could be on anything from £30,000 to £45 000 , if your a divsional rep you could be on anything from £28 000 , if your a postal officer you would be on different wage and if your a postman you would be on a postman wage. Some recieve £95 per night subsitance if you travel normally outside of the home counties but Peterborough falls into that catogary , others recieve from £10 to £15 daily subsistance. Others cover a national officer when that officer is on leave and recieve that salary for that period. So in short we have a complete array of payments which in my view discourage talented indivduals from standing from all over the UK. Some do not like the idea of having to be in London away from their families for 4 or 5 nights per week , others do not want to leave their office where they may do opg overtime in their parent office and then be financially disadvantaged by then having to work from Wimbledon.

There was a PEC member a few years ago who resigned mid term becasue he was losing too much money because he could perform his SA slot in his office in line with his turn becasue he was working on behalf of the members on the PEC. That PEC member was in my opinion a sad loss to the PEC and a wake up call. In the same way there are discussions on Regional Secretary`s pay there has to be the same on the PEC.

However it must be open and must be expained and the decision of annual conference or the new style decision of briefing.

I have not been on this site before, in fact id never heard of it until a couple of mates of mine who happen to be postman questioned me about my pay. Very embarrasing in my local on a saturday night. This was because someone called Martin Walsh said that an engineers pay started at 30 gand. I understand Mr Walsh is high up in the union and if so should get his facts right. I am tech 3 with romec and get paid just over 20 grand, there is a point below me on less than 17 grand. i think my pay is too low not sure if martin would agree and if he does perhaps he can sort out my pay rise which was due in january, and while he's at it perhaps he could sort out the bullying managers. Perhaps martin would write a retraction so my mates know the facts.

[lovejoy]

Sorry when I was making the example of the Southend Official I meant that idivdual would be working on the floor within the mail centre on OPG work after his duty has finished. When he then went to work at CWU HQs of course he cant perform SA and therefore loses the opportunity of working any overtime. Whereas someone who is in reciept of the nightly subsistance and shares a flat with a group of others in or around wimbledon will be advantaged.

Now I do believe there can be a fair way found which does not mean people are disadvantaged. Of course it would have to be accountable to members. This is not to advantage indivduals standing or serving on the PEC , it would be designed to not disadvantage them for working outside of their parent office and normally working either in CWU HQs or in other regions.

Like I said if your an engineer on the PEC you could be on anything from £30,000 to £45 000 , if your a divsional rep you could be on anything from £28 000 , if your a postal officer you would be on different wage and if your a postman you would be on a postman wage. Some recieve £95 per night subsitance if you travel normally outside of the home counties but Peterborough falls into that catogary , others recieve from £10 to £15 daily subsistance. Others cover a national officer when that officer is on leave and recieve that salary for that period. So in short we have a complete array of payments which in my view discourage talented indivduals from standing from all over the UK. Some do not like the idea of having to be in London away from their families for 4 or 5 nights per week , others do not want to leave their office where they may do opg overtime in their parent office and then be financially disadvantaged by then having to work from Wimbledon.

There was a PEC member a few years ago who resigned mid term becasue he was losing too much money because he could perform his SA slot in his office in line with his turn becasue he was working on behalf of the members on the PEC. That PEC member was in my opinion a sad loss to the PEC and a wake up call. In the same way there are discussions on Regional Secretary`s pay there has to be the same on the PEC.

However it must be open and must be expained and the decision of annual conference or the new style decision of briefing.

I have not been on this site before, in fact id never heard of it until a couple of mates of mine who happen to be postman questioned me about my pay. Very embarrasing in my local on a saturday night. This was because someone called Martin Walsh said that an engineers pay started at 30 gand. I understand Mr Walsh is high up in the union and if so should get his facts right. I am tech 3 with romec and get paid just over 20 grand, there is a point below me on less than 17 grand. i think my pay is too low not sure if martin would agree and if he does perhaps he can sort out my pay rise which was due in january, and while he's at it perhaps he could sort out the bullying managers. Perhaps martin would write a retraction so my mates know the facts.

Davie,

Martin is right. The engineers on the PEC are RM or RM technical services engineers so are in that pay bracket.

I can see where your friends have misinterpreted the post though.

[Davie J]

Sorry when I was making the example of the Southend Official I meant that idivdual would be working on the floor within the mail centre on OPG work after his duty has finished. When he then went to work at CWU HQs of course he cant perform SA and therefore loses the opportunity of working any overtime. Whereas someone who is in reciept of the nightly subsistance and shares a flat with a group of others in or around wimbledon will be advantaged.

Now I do believe there can be a fair way found which does not mean people are disadvantaged. Of course it would have to be accountable to members. This is not to advantage indivduals standing or serving on the PEC , it would be designed to not disadvantage them for working outside of their parent office and normally working either in CWU HQs or in other regions.

Like I said if your an engineer on the PEC you could be on anything from £30,000 to £45 000 , if your a divsional rep you could be on anything from £28 000 , if your a postal officer you would be on different wage and if your a postman you would be on a postman wage. Some recieve £95 per night subsitance if you travel normally outside of the home counties but Peterborough falls into that catogary , others recieve from £10 to £15 daily subsistance. Others cover a national officer when that officer is on leave and recieve that salary for that period. So in short we have a complete array of payments which in my view discourage talented indivduals from standing from all over the UK. Some do not like the idea of having to be in London away from their families for 4 or 5 nights per week , others do not want to leave their office where they may do opg overtime in their parent office and then be financially disadvantaged by then having to work from Wimbledon.

There was a PEC member a few years ago who resigned mid term becasue he was losing too much money because he could perform his SA slot in his office in line with his turn becasue he was working on behalf of the members on the PEC. That PEC member was in my opinion a sad loss to the PEC and a wake up call. In the same way there are discussions on Regional Secretary`s pay there has to be the same on the PEC.

However it must be open and must be expained and the decision of annual conference or the new style decision of briefing.

I have not been on this site before, in fact id never heard of it until a couple of mates of mine who happen to be postman questioned me about my pay. Very embarrasing in my local on a saturday night. This was because someone called Martin Walsh said that an engineers pay started at 30 gand. I understand Mr Walsh is high up in the union and if so should get his facts right. I am tech 3 with romec and get paid just over 20 grand, there is a point below me on less than 17 grand. i think my pay is too low not sure if martin would agree and if he does perhaps he can sort out my pay rise which was due in january, and while he's at it perhaps he could sort out the bullying managers. Perhaps martin would write a retraction so my mates know the facts.

Davie,

Martin is right. The engineers on the PEC are RM or RM technical services engineers so are in that pay bracket.

I can see where your friends have misinterpreted the post though.

Thanks Love Joy. Badly put together by Martin especially when he says "you could be on anything from £30,000 to £45 000". I still think this is misleading could you tell me what grade is on 45 grand? And can you tell me who negotiated that and I'll vote for them.

[BPeters]

So would I have so would I have

[Big Daz]

CWU pay handbook available on CWU website has pay rates for CWU mbrs.

That will show rates for various grades across the all the different employers CWU deals with.

[Davie J]

CWU pay handbook available on CWU website has pay rates for CWU mbrs.

That will show rates for various grades across the all the different employers CWU deals with.

Thanks Big Daz. Can't seem to get into pay rates on CWU site - iv got my membership number but no pass word or recognizable email!

Also LoveJoy and Martin Walsh seem to have gone a bit quiet on this topic!