backdating of stages?

[white horse]

Should stages be backdated to your last date of absence (return)? Or is a stage issued 1 month after your last absence acceptable?

[madmartin]

Can you be issued with a stage warning if when you return to work after being off sick you dont have a return to work interview? a friend of mine is is due to go in for a stage 1 intereview later this week and although he has gone over the limit for time he has had off (something like 3 periods but about 18 days) on none of his 3 periods off was he given a return to work interview?

[fishtank]

It's supposed to be the date of the stage interview but if there has been unreasonable delay you can request and expect it to be backdated.
I would say 4 weeks is unreasonable delay.

[fishtank]

Can you be issued with a stage warning if when you return to work after being off sick you dont have a return to work interview? a friend of mine is is due to go in for a stage 1 intereview later this week and although he has gone over the limit for time he has had off (something like 3 periods but about 18 days) on none of his 3 periods off was he given a return to work interview?

Yes.
RTW's are not part of the formal attendance process.

[white horse]

It's supposed to be the date of the stage interview but if there has been unreasonable delay you can request and expect it to be backdated.
I would say 4 weeks is unreasonable delay.

Thanks for your reply.

I was Issued with a stage, despite 3 consecutive failures for rtws. I don't know if that can be appealed against?

[fishtank]

I was Issued with a stage, despite 3 consecutive failures for rtws. I don't know if that can be appealed against?

The problem with an RTW and the reason it's not seen as part of the formal procedure is that you have no right to representation at an RTW so until there is it is safer from a members point of view to keep it at arms length.
Of course what this also means is because there is no official paper trail it is very easy for a manager to lie about whether you have had one or not.
As far as i know securing the right to representation at RTW's is one of the aims of the discussions on a new attendance procedure.

[malcolm3011]

It's supposed to be the date of the stage interview but if there has been unreasonable delay you can request and expect it to be backdated.
I would say 4 weeks is unreasonable delay.

I was issued a stage one warning 3 months after my third sickness, i questioned the delay and said it should take effect from my return to work date but was told the warning starts from the date of the interview and there is no grounds of appeal, had my union rep with me at the interview and he agreed with this.

[fishtank]

It's supposed to be the date of the stage interview but if there has been unreasonable delay you can request and expect it to be backdated.
I would say 4 weeks is unreasonable delay.

I was issued a stage one warning 3 months after my third sickness, i questioned the delay and said it should take effect from my return to work date but was told the warning starts from the date of the interview and there is no grounds of appeal, had my union rep with me at the interview and he agreed with this.

I'm afraid your union rep is wrong.
The only part of an attendance stage that is not subject to appeal is the actual managerial decision whether or not to apply a stage warning.
All of the procedures and processes surrounding a stage are subject to appeal including the time taken to apply it.
That's what the grievance procedure is for.

[Lincox]

Fish, you say that there is no paper trail for a RTW. That is incorrect as I had an RTW last week and a two page document was completed by my lino which asked me questions on whether I thought the reason for abscence might reoccur and cause more time off in the future. Whether I understood the Stage Warning System for Sickness Absense etc etc, and both the Lino and I had to sign it. If this is not part of the agreed system then can we refuse to get involved with it, and if so why are the CWU allowing this interview to take place.

[fishtank]

Fish, you say that there is no paper trail for a RTW. That is incorrect as I had an RTW last week and a two page document was completed by my lino which asked me questions on whether I thought the reason for abscence might reoccur and cause more time off in the future. Whether I understood the Stage Warning System for Sickness Absense etc etc, and both the Lino and I had to sign it. If this is not part of the agreed system then can we refuse to get involved with it, and if so why are the CWU allowing this interview to take place.

Never heard of or seen a document like this but i have a feeling i wouldn't like it and i personally wouldn't sign it.
The only thing i sign at an RTW is a self-cert.

[Lincox]

This clearly highlights the difficult situation we are all in, because there is no one set system being operated by Royal Mail. Every office seems to operate their own internal system which has nothing to do with the agreements that the CWU and Royal Mail have laid down. It,s yet another farce that this company operates.

[andy2007]

I was Issued with a stage, despite 3 consecutive failures for rtws. I don't know if that can be appealed against?

The problem with an RTW and the reason it's not seen as part of the formal procedure is that you have no right to representation at an RTW so until there is it is safer from a members point of view to keep it at arms length.
Of course what this also means is because there is no official paper trail it is very easy for a manager to lie about whether you have had one or not.
As far as i know securing the right to representation at RTW's is one of the aims of the discussions on a new attendance procedure.

When did that change?
We've always been able to insist on a Rep being present at our RTWs. Or is it just Deliveries who don't have that right?

[fishtank]

When did that change?
We've always been able to insist on a Rep being present at our RTWs. Or is it just Deliveries who don't have that right?

http://www.royalmailchat.co.uk/communit ... tw#p368688" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Objectives
There is a significant body of conference policy relating to attendance issues in recent years:

Accident and DDA absences being dealt with in line with ACAS guidelines/disability absences being discounted.

Absences due to epidemic and pandemic not counting towards stage warnings.

Right to representation at RTW interview.

Right to appeal at all stages.

Independent appeals managers to deal with dismissal appeals.

Time limits between the absence that triggers the dismissal stage and the interview.

Conclude cases within 28 days/cases to be concluded within notice period or notice period to be extended.

There has never been a right to representation at a return to work interview Andy.
If,locally your managers don't mind then all the better...but it isn't a nationally agreed right.

[Pat Ostman]

Fish, you say that there is no paper trail for a RTW. That is incorrect as I had an RTW last week and a two page document was completed by my lino which asked me questions on whether I thought the reason for abscence might reoccur and cause more time off in the future. Whether I understood the Stage Warning System for Sickness Absense etc etc, and both the Lino and I had to sign it. If this is not part of the agreed system then can we refuse to get involved with it, and if so why are the CWU allowing this interview to take place.

Never heard of or seen a document like this but i have a feeling i wouldn't like it and i personally wouldn't sign it.
The only thing i sign at an RTW is a self-cert.

We have the same document it seems over here and I refuse to sign it.

[Ahebban]

Yes, it is a seemingly grey area for some unknown reason. I have always taken the view that RTW meetings after a single sick absence should not be confused with accrued sick absence that trigger Stage Warnings.

I always offer to sit in on any meeting that a member may have with management (irrespective of its nature), if only to ensure that the meeting is conducted in a fair manner. Until I hear otherwise, I will continue to operate on that basis, and offer support to members whenever the need arises.

In reference to when Stage Warnings are issued I have always argued that any delay from trigger to actual DOM decision is detrimental to the member on grounds of stress etc, and should automatically be considered for use of Grievance Procedure. Insistence that Stage Warnings are back-dated to the actual issue date is also something else that I have always argued. If Royal Mail choose to operate such a policy then DOMs should show respect both to the member and Royal Mail's own policy and deal with issues arising promptly.