work injury...is my job safe?

[jayharding]

after suffering from a bad back for two week. and asking for help on my walk due to exessive mail, approx 120kilo mail per day (7-8 sacks plus avrage 15-20 packets) over the distance of 7mile. my hours are 9-1 but delivering to times upto 5pm due to distance. today my back finally gave and after ligting a bag in the correct way (straight back, bent knees) while lifting it over my head onto my shoulder i ripped the muscles down the left hand side of my back. (very painfull)

went straight to hospital and then GP confirmed the muscles were ripped and gave me prescription for treatment and highly recommended i attended phisio therapy.

But ive only been with the royal mail for just over 3month and only ever done this walk. plus summer efficency everyday also. but have not been given the opertunity to try a different route, this is the largest route in the office and has caused several members of staff to now need phisio therapy? the route needs looked into in my opinion as it has not been this large for very long as streets of other routes were added to this one to make other routes smaller.
i am currently in alot of pain and need to go fill in accident report today at 5pm.
the contract state i am only allowed so many days off within first 12month. i would be more than happy to do office3 duties. my GP said its up to me if i want to go to work or not but they suggest i do not. and i definatley DO NOT LIFT anything.
is my job secure?
thankyou

[jayharding]

i use the big hct trolleys so weighed the full thing the weight was 126. ive never had work based training really so unsure of the weight limits and what to do if its over weight? i also weigh my first carry bag to check its under weigh and it was, but while on my walk its hard to tell if the bundles ive put in are under weight if you understand me.. but yes i did weigh and record before leaving the office

[clashcityrocker]

I thought the new bag weight matrix was one bag of 16kg and all others 11kg.
(Less for hills and steps)

[jayharding]

no i have to kids. just the misses :)
i have no idea why i have to go in at 5pm the boss came to my house and left a massage for me to go down at 5. as the injury accured while on my walk miles away from office i could not contact them and went straight to hospital as it was closer than the office and was in agony and finding it hard to walk. ive said several times i want finished on my contracted hours 1pm. i understand some flexibilty is required but i CANT do my round that fast and ive tried my hardest just about killed myself pushing to get round that fast. but im finishing everyday 3.30pm -5....my boss says this is flexible hours even tho my contract says part time. i dont mind been flexible to an extent but to late evening. i have other job but cant make the shifts due to royal mail (first and main job) so feel i need to push my self causing injuries.

thanks so much for very fast replies

mate i dont even know what WTL is???? pretty sure my manager aint been threw that with me. due to starting at 9 i miss all the meeting i just go in bundle up and start my round about 10.30-11am or when ever a lift is available. i didnt know the bag limits went down the longer the walk. my walk is massive hills galore and more steps than the great wall lol.... worried that if i refuse to carry my limit the boss will be funny with me so allways just got on with it. how can they expect us to weigh our carry bag everytime we refill??

[jayharding]

yeah i remeber one morning he called me in office for a work time learning meeting i was alone with manger, im only staff that starts at 9am everyone else starts early to sort their mail. he says this is because off lack of vans and no point starting early as i cant get a lift out. my wtl last time was about miss deliveries and doin final checks. to my knowlage the only bag weight learning i dont was 4 month ago in my induction about the limits of each type of bag/york ect....no mention of the weight going down per bag or distance walked.
ill take your advice as i am in to much pain and would have to walk 1mile to my office. and my GP has recomended rest and not to drive on the medication presribed.

just like to thankyou for bein so helpfull and replying fast. i will ring them tommorw. the Dr said i can have a sick note if required but that i am able to use a self sick note for 7 days. i have no clue about sick notes act as my attendance has allways been very punctual. never been off or late for most jobs and definatley never been so much as late for my job with the RM

wow thats some bad crack about the snow chains. how can u ware them if their not supplied like?? serious eh

[jayharding]

yeah i have a rep. im also sighned up to the union..ill see the guy when i can find him lol

[Dorset Plodder]

Sound advice JC Just another example of a Bullying DIM taking the piss out of new staff

Bag weights are great in theory and we've all heard the ,"You can use as many bags as you like....." mantra, but I find the problem is lack of back drops. If you have to keep retracing your tracks to pick up another bag, there's a great temptation to overload them. Some duties are great, loads of Drops and you just seem to "Flow", others are not thought out and a bloody nightmare.

Having said that most of our non-van duties have a bike (at the moment) and I don't think Management? realise how useful they're for carrying the weight!

[brothermagrew]

I thought the new bag weight matrix was one bag of 16kg and all others 11kg.
(Less for hills and steps)

My rep and managers ,said about a week ago after our audit, that its 15, 15, 11, and then lower and lower

Brother Jimmy afraid that brother clashcityrocker is correct and it would appear that your rep and managers are talking a load of twaddle. The nationally agreed standards from May 2010, are now one delivery pouch/bag weighing up to the maximum 16kg and all further or subsequent delivery pouches/bags at 11kg and as identified by brother clashcityrocker (Less for hills and steps).

LTB No. 448/10
Ref C13
Date: 24 May 2010

To: All Postal Branches

Dear Colleagues


Re: Introduction of a New Pouch Weight Standard - Simplified 16k/11k Matrix & Terrain Adjustments:

Introduction

This LTB is to confirm the national introduction of a new simplified pouch weight matrix, in line with CWU Conference Policy. The national introduction and roll out commenced as of Friday 21 May 2010.

Conference Policy
In line with Conference Policy the CWU's Health, Safety and Environment Department has continued to pursue an agreement with Royal Mail Letters that the matrix of weights for additional pouches should be simplified and reduced. The current 'Pouch Weight Matrix' set up as part of the Single Daily Delivery (SDD) agreement laid down a declining weight scale dependant on the number of additional pouches. The existing current sliding scale 'Pouch Weight Matrix' is 16k, 16k, 12k, 10k, 10k, 8k etc.

Background
In past years HSE and Local Authority (EHO) Inspections have consistently found that maximum pouch weights were not being controlled effectively in Delivery Offices, supporting the view of the CWU and CWU Safety Representatives. The HSE Inspection Programme of Royal Mail Delivery Work, 2nd Report For 2005-2006 reported findings of :

"Manual Handling/Musculoskeletal accidents, injuries and ill health concerns centred upon excessive pouch weights and the failure to monitor their weight effectively" plus "Inspectors found that no checks on pouch weights were being undertaken in some offices and in others where pouches were weighed and found to be excessive no action was taken. This was regularly putting Postmen and Women at risk of injury and ill health from the cumulative effects of lifting, carrying and handling excessive weights."

Following the publication of the HSE report, meetings took place with Royal Mail and the HSE and in August 2006, the Health, Safety and Environment Department called for action be taken in relation to the need to tackle manual handling/musculoskeletal injuries connected to overweight pouches and bags through the better management of Pouch Weights and bags. We first proposed a move away from the existing current sliding scale Pouch Weight Matrix over to a simpler system of a straight 16k max first pouch followed by a standard 11k max for every other pouch plus terrain adjustments. This we argued was in order to assist with tackling manual handling/musculoskeletal injuries and slips, trips and falls accidents connected to overweight pouches and bags. We argued that in theory the current sliding scale pouch weight matrix looks good on paper but in practice many Delivery Offices were not complying. Hence a number of HSE and LA Enforcement Notices had been served on Royal Mail Delivery Offices regarding a lack of pouch weight controls, unacceptable manual handling risks and accidents incurred by Postmen and Women on Delivery. Although Royal Mail argued that ergonomically there is no issue with the existing matrix providing managers and frontline staff ensured they work within it, in reality it wasn't working or being managed effectively and it was agreed between CWU, Royal Mail and HSE that the new 16K - 11k standard is potentially easier to manage. The theory being a simplified more easily manageable matrix would enable reduced weight and reduced risks through better weight control. It's important to emphasise the fact that everyone has an important role to play in the control of Pouch Weights, both management and delivery staff in not overloading pouches under any circumstances.

Negotiations
A CWU/RML Joint Working Party with sub-groups was established to look at the subject and they subsequently reported back to the Royal Mail Letters National Joint Steering Group supporting the proposal to modify the Pouch Weight Matrix. The recommendation was endorsed and subsequently accepted by the Royal Mail Letters Operational Executive.

A position was reached where it is agreed by CWU, RML and HSE that a sensible and pragmatic way to improve the control of excess weight on delivery and to contribute towards overcoming the problem of excess weight being carried over the shoulder, causing unacceptable levels of Manual Handling MSD injury and ill health risks would be to alter the pouch weight matrix and to ensure compliance. The new standard would be based on a new arrangement that the maximum weight of the first pouch will remain at 16 Kg but the maximum pouch weight of the second and all subsequent pouches will be 11 Kg. This would form part of the strategy of removing the weight from the delivery person where ever possible via the introduction of a range of delivery aids and equipment to take the load within the 'New Delivery Methods' programme.

Trials
Agreed trials were conducted in East and North London, South and West Wales and South Yorkshire which were designed primarily to test the proposed compliance process of pouch weigh sampling checks and follow-up approach.

Compliance Process
In relation to 'compliance' - all parties HSE, CWU and Royal Mail wanted to be sure that we had a structure and matrix which could deliver compliance (this being a view and approach strongly expressed by the HSE) and a key part of the Trials was aimed at developing a system to ensure that the new Pouch Weights are fully complied with once introduced and would meet HSE and LA Inspectors requirements.

The HSE was concerned that sustainable compliance was achieved and the main change is that staff don't have to record 100% of their pouch weights daily on the old record sheets (where they were previously used), except for new starters. This was part of the trial programme and was based on the views of HSE. It was found that 100% self recording of delivery pouch weights wasn't a sustainable solution, and wasn't ensuring consistent compliance to pouch weight limits as staff in many Delivery Offices inspected were still taking out overweight pouches. HSE Inspectors found that no checks on pouch weights were being undertaken in some Delivery Offices and in others where pouches were weighed and found to be excessive no action was taken. Where record sheets were kept, Pouch Weights didn't always tally with record sheets or record sheets were incomplete or not used in some locations.

As such a pouch weight sampling strategy and checking system was developed which went away from individuals weighing and recording their own pouch weights on record sheets and instead introduced a random sampling process whereby typically, sampling will be carried out by management on a daily basis with in the range of 5 -15% of all the walks at each Delivery Office. Under the process, as a minimum, the DOM will ensure that a sample of 5 -15% of all Delivery Rounds or a minimum 2 - 4 full delivery walks per day will have all pouches weighed, checked and recorded on the new pro-forma provided by the Delivery Office Manager or the delivery person's immediate supervisor. All pouch weights on the randomly selected delivery rounds will be recorded on a new pro-forma (copy attached). This process will take place in each Delivery Office and non-compliance with the weight limits can lead to a 1 to 1 meeting between the DOM and individual in order to find solutions or alternatively a general talk to the Delivery Office staff at a 'Work Time Listening and Learning Session' (WTLL) which can take place to discuss compliance. This will in turn be subject to audit check by the Regional Safety Director's team and will also be subject to scrutiny by LA and HSE Inspectors, should an Inspection be carried out.

'Daily Pouch Weigh Checks' pro-forma
The 'Daily Pouch Weigh Checks' pro-forma was developed and used in trial Offices, with CWU ASR input. The process described above uses the attached Weighing Sheets to record the Pouch Weights and HCT Weights of the randomly selected sample delivery rounds and the records which will be kept for a year will be subject to audit. Different templates were tried in the Trials before a preferred version was determined. The daily weight check sheet pro-forma also provides for a clear record follow-up action to any non-compliance.

Walk Risk Assessment. Where extreme terrain conditions
Each Delivery Round must be subjected to a Walk Risk Assessment. Where extreme terrain conditions are encountered on a particular walk, e.g. steep slopes or many stairs, pouch weights can be reduced to manage the musculoskeletal injury risks further. Ergonomic studies have provided guidance of 8 kg for greater than 1:12 slopes and 5 kg for greater than 1:8 slopes or predominantly going up stairs. There are several factors in setting appropriate values, such as the number of slopes or stairs encountered and the time period over which the pouch is emptied in delivering the mail. This should be determined through local walk risk assessment, working to the guidance provided in the new Royal Mail Letters Safety Standard SMS2.A2 and the associated WTL&L 'WRAP' Guidance, in consultation with the workforce and CWU Safety Representative. Note: Due to Risk Assessment the 16Kg Pouch doesn't have to be the first pouch on the walk and the 16kg/11kg weights can be reduced to for example 8kg/5kg on lots of stairs, steep inclines or due to individual capability following risk assessment.

The new Pouch Weight Standard summary

· The new Standard applies to all Royal Mail Letters delivery operations. The principle adopted by Letters is, where feasible, to remove the need to carry weight on the shoulder by deploying other delivery techniques.
· Based on ergonomic assessment, a clear limit of 16kg maximum has been established for pouch handling. Beyond this restriction, there are two other aspects that must be considered in making up pouches: fatigue from carrying a series of pouches, and terrain (particularly stairs and hills) encountered during the walk.
· The first pouch on any walk will be up to the maximum 16kg, and, to accommodate the risks of fatigue, a guideline limit of 11kg will be set for subsequent pouches.
· Where terrain necessitates further adjustment to pouch weights on a given walk, a local walk risk assessment will be carried out involving the Delivery Office Manager and the relevant delivery person.
· Adjustments will be recorded in the walk log, with the delivery person making the actual adjustment to the appropriate pouch dependent on the volumes to be delivered on a given day.
· For the purposes of accommodating terrain issues, it may be appropriate that rather than use a 16kg pouch on the first leg of the walk, an 11kg pouch is used and a 16kg pouch used second or third pouch in the walk over more suitable terrain. However, only one 16kg pouch will be used on any given walk. (guidance is provided).
· As part of the walk assessment process, mechanisms (such as the use of High-Capacity Trolleys and pouch drops) will be identified and deployed accordingly.
· Where the walk is being covered by a different individual, that individual is required, as part of familiarisation with the walk hazards, to review the pouch weight arrangements for the walk, and raise any potential issues with their immediate supervisor.
· Vulnerable individuals (young person, pregnant woman etc.), will have their pouch weight arrangements reviewed and related manual handling assessments, to ensure that appropriate temporary arrangements are introduced. The maximum pouch weight for a young person will be limited to 10kg.
· The Delivery Office Manager will ensure that weighing facilities are maintained at the Delivery Unit, so that delivery staff can check the weight of their pouches where they have any concerns.
· The Delivery Office Manager will ensure that sampling of pouch weights is undertaken on an ongoing basis of 5 -15% of all Delivery Rounds or a minimum 2 - 4 full delivery walks per day will have all pouches weighed, checked and recorded on the new pro-forma. Where pouch weights are being exceeded, frequency of sampling will be increased and take action to ensure that the pouch weights are brought back into compliance with follow-up action which could include amendment of the delivery support arrangements, team briefings, 1-2-1 coaching, and/or other appropriate measures to promote and ensure compliance.
· Follow-up action resulting from non-compliance, will be recorded on the pro-forma provided.
· Appropriate, necessary training for compliance with the Pouch Weight Standard will be provided.
· The Head of Safety Management will maintain audit programmes to monitor compliance with the Pouch Weight Standard.
· Terrain Adjustment Guidance is provided in WRAP and the weights carried on stairs and on hills should be minimised.

It has been agreed to implement and roll out the new 16kg/11kg pouch weight arrangements across the UK with the RML/CWU/UniteCMA joint statement on "WRAP". (see attached).

Local discussions should take place between management and the CWU ASR involvement prior to the new arrangements being implemented ensuring that the key objective of the arrangements for weighing of pouches and checking that maximum weights are adhered to on all occasions are maintained.
New Pouch Weight Standard

The 'New Pouch Weight Health and Safety Standard' and 'Daily Pouch and HCT Weight Checks' pro-forma are contained within the WRAP system and WRAP Manual.

Pouch Weight Cards/Labels:
A suggestion was raised with Royal Mail as part of the above whereby small cards or labels are attached to each delivery pouch, identifying what number pouch it is and what weight it should be in line with the matrix. The aim is for this to assist weight control and to assist replenishment operations in order to ensure second and subsequent pouches are taken out to pouch boxes and drop points in the right order. Royal Mail are currently developing this idea and again we hope to see its national introduction in the near future.

Yours Sincerely

Dave Joyce
National Health, Safety & Environment Officer

[Gaz71]

Wow, this guy sounds just like me. I'm 3 months in and off because of an injury too. Also was given, what I've been told is, the worst round there is. Lots of hills, lots of steps. One area is like a 45 degree hill with 45 degree steps leading off it, absolute nightmare of a place. Personally, I don't think they should be giving these type of rounds to new people, it would be a lot better for new postmen to start off on something lighter to get the feel for the job and for the fitness level to increase before being pushed onto the horror zones.

Not going to happen, but we can dream.

[BELIAL]

i use the big hct trolleys so weighed the full thing the weight was 126. ive never had work based training really so unsure of the weight limits and what to do if its over weight? i also weigh my first carry bag to check its under weigh and it was, but while on my walk its hard to tell if the bundles ive put in are under weight if you understand me.. but yes i did weigh and record before leaving the office

I dont know the weights with trolleys mate, as we havent got them yet! As long as you did your 1st carrying bag, and it was 15 or under, thats fine, but make sure that when asked , your bags get lighter as you go onwards.

I dont know that much, but it appears theres no one about and your appt, if you go, is in an hour !

HCT unladen weight = 34kg
HCT max laden weight = 105kg
Don't overload your trolley, you can get 184kg total if you are really daft

[hantsman]

Hi, are you getting paid for the hours you work past 1pm?

[jayharding]

hi, update time!

yes i am getting paid for my hours past 1o'clock. but i dont need or really even want the overtime as i have another job witch pays better but has less hours required.

i went into work today and done the accident report on the computer. ive been placed on office duties.

BUT.....my manager called me to his office to do WTL on bag weights. this is the first times ive been told about bag weights. he gave me sheet for me to read my self. it was a sheet he had typed up himself wich seemed fair enough but the date on the sheet was 2/8/2010. meaning if i signed it was before the date of injury.
so i corrected the date to todays and signed and also signed todays date under my name and signiture.
i think possibly a little bit of covering his own back...fair enough but i will also do everything i can to cover my own back also.

[hantsman]

hi, update time!

yes i am getting paid for my hours past 1o'clock. but i dont need or really even want the overtime as i have another job witch pays better but has less hours required.

i went into work today and done the accident report on the computer. ive been placed on office duties.

BUT.....my manager called me to his office to do WTL on bag weights. this is the first times ive been told about bag weights. he gave me sheet for me to read my self. it was a sheet he had typed up himself wich seemed fair enough but the date on the sheet was 2/8/2010. meaning if i signed it was before the date of injury.
so i corrected the date to todays and signed and also signed todays date under my name and signiture.
i think possibly a little bit of covering his own back...fair enough but i will also do everything i can to cover my own back also.

Get a copy of that letter,

if your getting paid for excess hours your managers knows its a big round IMHO

[jayharding]

ill ask for a copy of that letter on tuesday when i go back in mate.
i allwayd thought my hours i went over i just got paid them due to fact i was still working and wont work for free. though i need to tart writing my hours down as i get 7-8 hours O/T perweek but i infact know i do alot more. should i be paid for every hour ive worked?

[gb93]

Every minute plus break if you don't take it.