Myths about the agreement

[Martin Walsh]

I have no problem with anyone voting against the agreement as that is part of a democracy. I opposed the way forward as we lost load of money in that deal including the over time rates which were then capped by the working time directive. However instead of leaving the union we changed the union. We got candidates elected who have moved this union forward in terms of basic pay and terms and conditions.

Up to then we only played with industrial action , threatened it but never used it , there was only one national strike after 88.

Part of those who opposed the way forward was Dave Ward , Bob Gibson , some of the current PEC and some of the PAs plus some of the divisional reps. They are now the leadership of the union.

So instead of leaving the union and instead of hiding behind your computer throwing insults why dont you get organised in your Branch"s and divisions and change the union from within. Do you really think that not belonging to the union will protect you in the workplace in the future?

Now lets have a look at some myths

1/ That everyone will be worse off as part of this agreement ? Not true the fact is do you really believe that the union would move forward and put a deal which mean most people lose . No they didnt the union knows that a minority of individuals lose from this deal. The fact is that not everyone recieves the Early shift allowance and the average payment on door to door is £12.

Equally the average number of delivery points per delivery is 400 and some of that would be firms who do not attract door to door. Equally the average door to door is 2.1.

2. The other myth is that suddenly everyone will get loads more door to door. Look in 1998 Royal Mail share of the door to door market was 31% now in 2010 it is 22%.

TNT has captured the dominant share of the door to door market , along with newspapers and mail houses. Currently Royal Mail share is 3 billion items out of 14 billion items of the door to door market. Those companies will fight tooth and nail to defend their share of the market including under cutting Royal Mail.

Royal Mail are more costly and more restrictive then TNT in the market.

Plus Royal Mail have asked to meet the union in the next week or so as they want to go in the mailing house part of the market which is to capture more door to door in the market place they may have to put them in one envelope as obviously more door to door in the workplace means more hours saved and putting more costs in the workplace.

3. I think a lot of posters will have no understanding of the coming traffic split with walk sequencing as it will remove approximately 40% of your indoor workload for at least 2 , 3 or 4 hours from your normal workplace. Door to door will protect your job.

I am off out but will add to this post later .

[Dogs of War]

Dingo you can say what you want but the members will have the last say plan B or no plan B.

[garymgo]

Can you clarify a slight contradiction please:

average calls 400 x 1.67p = 6.68p
multiply average D2D 2.1 = 14.03p
not 12.00p.
Thanks

[Night Tonic]

Dingo you can say what you want but the members will have the last say plan B or no plan B.

Sure, but then suicide is open to anyone too.

[Dogs of War]

Night Tonic this is going to be a NO vote in my opinion. People are taking a major pay cut working harder and longer saturdays.

[andy2007]

Here are a few more myths about the agreement. Perhaps you would be good enough to comment on them Dingo.
1) We're more concerned about financial gain, than our terms and conditions, and health and safety (in case you're wondering. I'm one of the ones who'll gain financially from it, if it gets in).
2) We're willing to see some of our Collegues loose out financially, to pay for other's gains.
3) Workloads will become fair and achievable, with such a weak reference to it.
4) Delivery Posties H&S won't be threatened by the increased outdoor element.
5) WCM will be used as anything but a means of saving money in the short term. Rather than being used properly, to achieve greater quality of service, safety, efficiency, etc..

[Tman]

Dingo you can say what you want but the members will have the last say plan B or no plan B.

Quite so, but isn't he saying that posters on here/voters should be aware of a few facts rather than just being the usual mob mentality and voting "'cos everyone else voted that way"?
As RMC proved in '07, vehemently-held views from some on here doesn't always mean that's the way the rank-and-file think.

[lovejoy]

Dingo you can say what you want but the members will have the last say plan B or no plan B.

Quite so, but isn't he saying that posters on here/voters should be aware of a few facts rather than just being the usual mob mentality and voting "'cos everyone else voted that way"?
As RMC proved in '07, vehemently-held views from some on here doesn't always mean that's the way the rank-and-file think.

Thats the more incisive post I have seen in a long time Tman.

I've got some other bits to contribute later but off for a few bank holiday ales 1st

[andy2007]

True. But what about those of us who have reasoned arguments against the deal?
Perhaps you, could comment on the myths I exposed in my previous post.

[welshy808]

1/ That everyone will be worse off as part of this agreement ? Not true the fact is do you really believe that the union would move forward and put a deal which mean most people lose . No they didnt the union knows that a minority of individuals lose from this deal. The fact is that not everyone recieves the Early shift allowance and the average payment on door to door is £12.

It's true not everybody receives ESA, but it is also true to say not everybody will receive £20.60
The AG who used to get £20.04 for doing 3 D2D on an Average duty(using your figures) will lose even though he never received ESA
Those members of staff who Royal Mail treat so despicably with a 1 hour contract will now get 50p THANKS CWU
and Full Time staff who deliver more than 300 D2D with your average 2.1 will lose out

Equally the average number of delivery points per delivery is 400 and some of that would be firms who do not attract door to door. Equally the average door to door is 2.1.

Dingo is your average number of delivery points for Urban walks or does it include Rural deliveries and Firms.
If the average number of D2D is above 2 that means that on average we deliver 3 more often than 2, then if you factor in the Vast swaths of London that don't deliver any (according to Bob Gibson) then we must deliver 3 much more often than 2.

A bit of honesty would be appreciated when twisting figures to make this deal look better than it is.

2. The other myth is that suddenly everyone will get loads more door to door. Look in 1998 Royal Mail share of the door to door market was 31% now in 2010 it is 22%.

Royal Mail might only have a 22% share of the D2D market now but could you give us some details of the value of the D2D Market in 1998 so we could compare like for like. If the Market has grown in the last 12 years 22% could be a increase in D2D revenue. Without like for like figures you can twist the figures to suit whatever position you hold.

3. I think a lot of posters will have no understanding of the coming traffic split with walk sequencing as it will remove approximately 40% of your indoor workload for at least 2 , 3 or 4 hours from your normal workplace. Door to door will protect your job.

As far as I understand Walk Sequencing Machines can only sequence the same types of mail that we get walk sorted. How is this going to remove at least 2,3 or even 4 hours from indoor workload. Others on these forums working in offices where Walk Sequencing has already been deployed say from 19mins to 30mins Prep on an individual delivery. 12 mins per day of which could be accounted for with the SWW.
Like I say I have no experience of Walk sequencing so I might be wrong but how do they impact on IPS time sorting Flats & Packets etc.

[dblad]

Don't know about anybody else, but if I have to D2Ds I'd rather do one envelope with six items and go round once than get an extra tenner and go round every bloody day, £20.60, if your that desperate for a few more quid you should get a job that pays better

[Broxi51]

Don't know about anybody else, but if I have to D2Ds I'd rather do one envelope with six items and go round once than get an extra tenner and go round every bloody day, £20.60, if your that desperate for a few more quid you should get a job that pays better

Yeah, that sounds fair. You go round once and get a tenner while FTers do exactly the same and get £20
That is what is so unfair about this deal and before anyone asks, I am Full time and will get the £20.

[proper postie]

Sorry but I stopped reading at losers.

Are you f***ing mental? we went on strike to come away with 'oh well,some will win some will lose'? this is trade unionism in the modern world? f**k the wee guy 'coz some will win.There should be NO LOSERS,none,nada.You don't come away from talks and table a deal that leaves you worse off than when you went in.At present I'm paid what I work,I get an early Saturday and d2d is paid as is.

Under this agreement I'm working to God only knows what time under this 'enabler' shite,I'm out untill 5pm (it'll happen believe me) on a Saturday and d2d pay is gone.Spare me the supplement,jobs saved pish too please.

I went on strike to get rimmed? A f***ing JOKE

Shove it,shove it right up yer arse.

[andy2007]

The money's the LEAST of our problems mate! The longer outdoor element, WCM, unachievable targets, etc., etc.. Are what'll REALLY make life difficult.

Although, there's no doubt that it's terrible that some will have to loose out, to pay for other's financial gain.

[Dogs of War]

proper postie well said dingo can stick his words up his arse. SOLD DOWN THE RIVER.