My reasons for maybe a YES vote.

[banner18]

I have read the agreement quite thoroughly now and can't find anything really terrible. Of course, the way it is interpreted could make it terrible. I am certainly not happy with certain parts of it, but what agreement could you expect to be perfectly agreeable to both sides? If the spirit of both sides changed, maybe Royal mail could survive as a company.
Remember, their bullying and harrassment hasn't worked, it is bringing the company down. People taking the p*ss cannot work either, they have to be isolated.

We are where we are. I look at it this way when looking at these kind of issues. Not much point looking at the wider reasons, they are out of our control. We got liberalised far too early, they should have kept us public and plowed all profits back into RM to modernise it. DSA is completely unfair and isn't on a level playing field and has been used as a stick to beat RM into modernising. These are political issues though and above our scope.

Blaming higher management for creaming the profits doesn't really cut it. Even if we added up all the money wasted and all the money in vast bonuses, it would be miniscule compared to the turnover of Royal mail. We find it insulting of course, but it isn't really the reason why RM are in trouble.

People are blaming the union for selling us out, but it was probably RM who needed an agreement more than the union. The union look like they have had their hands tied behind their backs with this deal, but it would take the resolution of wider issues to get a much better deal than this.


We really have been backed into a corner now. A no vote will be as bad for RM as it will be for us.
Surely most people just want a fair days work for a fair days pay with some security built in. If that is the overall aim of the agreement, and both sides honour it, surely it is worth a go?

Remember,
unmanagable workloads = no future
workloads where people finish well before their time = no future
bullying and intimidating a workforce = no future
RM not transforming = no future
union and RM not reaching agreements = no future


Please don't shoot me down, it's just my opinion. I am as baffled as anyone about it all but I always try to make a decision based on logic and not emotion.

[DirtyHarry]

I don't understand.

"but it was probably RM who needed an agreement more than union"

"The union look like they have had their hands tied behind their backs with this deal"

So, how did we end up with the world's worst "deal of the century" ? And where is the wisdom in voting to accept it?

[I am number six]

I have read the agreement quite thoroughly now and can't find anything really terrible. Of course, the way it is interpreted could make it terrible. I am certainly not happy with certain parts of it, but what agreement could you expect to be perfectly agreeable to both sides? If the spirit of both sides changed, maybe Royal mail could survive as a company.
Remember, their bullying and harrassment hasn't worked, it is bringing the company down. People taking the p*ss cannot work either, they have to be isolated.

We are where we are. I look at it this way when looking at these kind of issues. Not much point looking at the wider reasons, they are out of our control. We got liberalised far too early, they should have kept us public and plowed all profits back into RM to modernise it. DSA is completely unfair and isn't on a level playing field and has been used as a stick to beat RM into modernising. These are political issues though and above our scope.

Blaming higher management for creaming the profits doesn't really cut it. Even if we added up all the money wasted and all the money in vast bonuses, it would be miniscule compared to the turnover of Royal mail. We find it insulting of course, but it isn't really the reason why RM are in trouble.

People are blaming the union for selling us out, but it was probably RM who needed an agreement more than the union. The union look like they have had their hands tied behind their backs with this deal, but it would take the resolution of wider issues to get a much better deal than this.


We really have been backed into a corner now. A no vote will be as bad for RM as it will be for us.
Surely most people just want a fair days work for a fair days pay with some security built in. If that is the overall aim of the agreement, and both sides honour it, surely it is worth a go?

Remember,
unmanagable workloads = no future
workloads where people finish well before their time = no future
bullying and intimidating a workforce = no future
RM not transforming = no future
union and RM not reaching agreements = no future


Please don't shoot me down, it's just my opinion. I am as baffled as anyone about it all but I always try to make a decision based on logic and not emotion.

We as a business after years of being in the Dark Age have to change, it is the only was we can all survive in the era of the digital age

We have to move with it, buy means of new marketing strategy, new modern machinery & technology ,and new ways of working

This agreement not only does that, but it also lays down the foundations and paves us a future

A yes vote will ensure this becomes a reality and secures a future we all desperately need

[banner18]

I don't understand.

"but it was probably RM who needed an agreement more than union"

"The union look like they have had their hands tied behind their backs with this deal"

So, how did we end up with the world's worst "deal of the century" ? And where is the wisdom in voting to accept it?

RM needed it more because of trouble in the workplace and strikes. There is no future for RM in a commercial environment with the current relationship they have with the workforce.

The union have made the best of a bad position. I never said the deal is really great. They have tried to make a deal that allows RM to return to healthy profit along with improving employee and employer relations.

I don't agree that it is the worst deal of the century. The benefits of the deal are not really tied up in money, in fact many will be worse off. The benefits are in better attendance patterns, better relations with the employer and hopefully better job security.
One of the things that is good about the deal is the end of private cars. People use certain methods to get done early. The more of these that go, the more people will do the job right. The more we do the job right, the less bullying and harrassment. When everybody does it right, bullying and harrassment is over. What are they going to do? B & H everyone?

The alarm call came when SDD was brought in and not many took notice, they still worked in the same manner as pre-sdd and use every method to try and get done early and make time.
While there are still a significant number of people working like this, RM can never know where it is. Everybody needs to work properly and accept that they will be working for the time that they are paid.

I'm hoping this deal goes some way into achieving this....

[horris_1uk]

banner18 you say the benifits are in better attendance patterns?? can you explain your thinking behind this please? and also do you work in delivery or processing? I'm just curious as to if it's just delivery staff who feel it's a bad deal or other parts of Royal Mail. I think that DSA is the biggest problem Royal Mail faces, being forced to deliver other companies mail at a set price yet that compay doesnt have the expense of getting the letter "the final mile"

[Stormproof]

We as a business after years of being in the Dark Age have to change, it is the only was we can all survive in the era of the digital age

We have to move with it, buy means of new marketing strategy, new modern machinery & technology ,and new ways of working

This agreement not only does that, but it also lays down the foundations and paves us a future

A yes vote will ensure this becomes a reality and secures a future we all desperately need

I doubt you made that paragraph up all by yourself No6, where did that come from? It'll be in an email from your leader or out of the SCourier........either is a propaganda bullshit machine

OK so we have'nt got the money to run the 'business' as it stands currently, it all seems to be on the shoulders of the workers to sort this problem(yet again!). How about getting rid of at least 50% of the so called managers, they are no good to anyone and maybe a new career of a greeter at Asda would be more suitable.
Re-negotiate the pittance we receive for DSA, how can RM make a profit when we are continually making a loss delivering for these leeches/parasites or whatever you want to call them.

[pickaname]

So the loss of D2D payments and ESA in favour of an ulimited number of items for £20.60 per week doesnt astonish you then?

Some people wont even be doing the damn things and will still get the supplement! FFS the CWU negotiating team are on acid surely!

Why didnt they spread the payment around more fairly to boost the earnings of the people doing the work?

[banner18]

banner18 you say the benifits are in better attendance patterns?? can you explain your thinking behind this please? and also do you work in delivery or processing? I'm just curious as to if it's just delivery staff who feel it's a bad deal or other parts of Royal Mail. I think that DSA is the biggest problem Royal Mail faces, being forced to deliver other companies mail at a set price yet that compay doesnt have the expense of getting the letter "the final mile"

Well, less saturdays, 4 day weeks, maybe 3 day weeks for part timers. End of long/shorts. The attendance patterns that people desire will be negotiated locally anyhow. There may well be ways of keeping shorter saturdays for some.
Some people don't like 4 day weeks etc.. due to the long hours, but with proper breaks and manageable workloads, they are no problem.
I work in delivery.
I understand that many have a real problem with ESA and D2D being dealt with in the way proposed but lets look at the current system.
One guy can be earning the ESA stood next to someone who starts at the same time and does the same job but doesn't get ESA.
One guy is getting ESA, decides to leave, the guy who replaces him doesn't get the ESA.

One guy has over 600 dps and earns twice the D2D money the guy with 300 dps earns, yet the guy with 600 dps doesn't earn twice the amount for the letters and packets he sorted and delivered over the 300 dp guy.
Now D2D is out of sync with normal mail. Normal mail is paid for the time we work. Now I'm not saying I am against peace work, but surely all the work should be under the same rules?
It is only because D2D payments are tiny compared to our basic wages that nobody really notices, but if we did operate peace work, the earning differences across RM would be vast and pretty unfair because a 50+ year old guy would never be able to clear the same work as a 20+ guy and thus would earn significantly less.

Saying that just the people that handle D2D should get paid a supplement is very difficult when they are bringing it into workload. A lot of people in deliveries handle D2D at some point whether it is transporting it or dishing them out. The supplement is not a payment for D2D, it is the recognised earnings from existing revenues that RM get for D2D, spread out amongst deliveries.


The rules surrounding DSA will probably change drastically once RM has fully modernised. It is being used to put RM under immense pressure, hence the reason we are under pressure, for example having to consider agreements such as this one.

[pickaname]

banner18 you say the benifits are in better attendance patterns?? can you explain your thinking behind this please? and also do you work in delivery or processing? I'm just curious as to if it's just delivery staff who feel it's a bad deal or other parts of Royal Mail. I think that DSA is the biggest problem Royal Mail faces, being forced to deliver other companies mail at a set price yet that compay doesnt have the expense of getting the letter "the final mile"

Well, less saturdays, 4 day weeks, maybe 3 day weeks for part timers. End of long/shorts. The attendance patterns that people desire will be negotiated locally anyhow. There may well be ways of keeping shorter saturdays for some.
Some people don't like 4 day weeks etc.. due to the long hours, but with proper breaks and manageable workloads, they are no problem.
I work in delivery.
I understand that many have a real problem with ESA and D2D being dealt with in the way proposed but lets look at the current system.
One guy can be earning the ESA stood next to someone who starts at the same time and does the same job but doesn't get ESA.
One guy is getting ESA, decides to leave, the guy who replaces him doesn't get the ESA.

One guy has over 600 dps and earns twice the D2D money the guy with 300 dps earns, yet the guy with 600 dps doesn't earn twice the amount for the letters and packets he sorted and delivered over the 300 dp guy.
Now D2D is out of sync with normal mail. Normal mail is paid for the time we work. Now I'm not saying I am against peace work, but surely all the work should be under the same rules?
It is only because D2D payments are tiny compared to our basic wages that nobody really notices, but if we did operate peace work, the earning differences across RM would be vast and pretty unfair because a 50+ year old guy would never be able to clear the same work as a 20+ guy and thus would earn significantly less.

Saying that just the people that handle D2D should get paid a supplement is very difficult when they are bringing it into workload. A lot of people in deliveries handle D2D at some point whether it is transporting it or dishing them out. The supplement is not a payment for D2D, it is the recognised earnings from existing revenues that RM get for D2D, spread out amongst deliveries.


The rules surrounding DSA will probably change drastically once RM has fully modernised. It is being used to put RM under immense pressure, hence the reason we are under pressure, for example having to consider agreements such as this one.

I see the major problem.

How do you convince an already poorly paid workforce to accept a huge paycut and a major workload increase?

[proper postie]

You don't see anything really terrible in the agreement? I'm going out on a limb here and guessing you don't work in deliveries.

[banner18]

How can MY workload increase? I work all the hours that I am paid.
If your workload increases then you must have capacity for it to increase?
If you say people will be B&H into accepting extra work for which they are not paid, then I say the only reason they can even try that is if sections of the workforce keep on working in the same manner as they did years ago, trying to make time. They can't B&H everyone if we all do the job right.
If D2D comes into workload, they can make us take as many as they like, but they will be paying us for the time it takes.

The only defence against the onslaught is for all of us to do the job right. If they set unrealistic duties, then everyone will be claiming or cutting off, then hours have to be put back in. B&H and intimidation will be over because it will be clear as the day that more hours are needed and it is impossible to B&H everyone.
I have done my bit, I start on my time, I work hard for all the hours that I am paid, I don't use my car. Unfortunately there is a culture that still persists to take breaks at the end of our shifts where I work and I have no choice but to abide by it at the moment. The sooner this changes the better though.
All it takes is for everybody to do the same and most of our problems are over.

[flaminmoses]

not sure what planet banner is on

but please where ever you are please come back down to planet earth sunshine

[banner18]

not sure what planet banner is on

but please where ever you are please come back down to planet earth sunshine

I'm guessing you got done before your time today?

[Big Daz]

not sure what planet banner is on

but please where ever you are please come back down to planet earth sunshine

I'm guessing you got done before your time today?

Plenty in my D.O did, sad but true.

[fishtank]

How can MY workload increase? I work all the hours that I am paid.

Yes but do you work to the standard RM will expect?

If your workload increases then you must have capacity for it to increase?

What if the IWT and pegasus say you already have capacity?

If you say people will be B&H into accepting extra work for which they are not paid, then I say the only reason they can even try that is if sections of the workforce keep on working in the same manner as they did years ago, trying to make time. They can't B&H everyone if we all do the job right.

How many people already come in early and work over just to save themselves being hassled and harrassed?

If D2D comes into workload, they can make us take as many as they like, but they will be paying us for the time it takes.

If they are saying volumes fell 8% last year then that drop in volume will take care of D2D into workload and if they say they have fallen 8% this year.......

The only defence against the onslaught is for all of us to do the job right. If they set unrealistic duties, then everyone will be claiming or cutting off, then hours have to be put back in. B&H and intimidation will be over because it will be clear as the day that more hours are needed and it is impossible to B&H everyone.
I have done my bit, I start on my time, I work hard for all the hours that I am paid, I don't use my car. Unfortunately there is a culture that still persists to take breaks at the end of our shifts where I work and I have no choice but to abide by it at the moment. The sooner this changes the better though.
All it takes is for everybody to do the same and most of our problems are over.

I have done the job properly since SDD was introduced and it has never stopped management from trying to harrass and bully me into increasing my workload.
The fact that have never achieved their aim has never stopped them trying and never will.
You will not stop Bullying and Harrassment until you tackle it head on and this agreement does not....if anything it makes it more acceptable.