IR framework to change

[MinisterofCucumber]

The agreement says:

"We will review and simplify the IR framework with consistent principles by Autumn 2010 which reflect our new relationship."

So if you vote 'Yes' you are voting for an unspecified change to the IR framework.

Will it be anything like the new POL IR framework?

http://www.cwu.org/news/archive/cwu-win ... mbers.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Martin Walsh]

The agreement says:

"We will review and simplify the IR framework with consistent principles by Autumn 2010 which reflect our new relationship."

So if you vote 'Yes' you are voting for an unspecified change to the IR framework.

Will it be anything like the new POL IR framework?

http://www.cwu.org/news/archive/cwu-win ... mbers.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Changing the IR framework has been in every agreement since the way forward and there has yet to be changed. In any case Dave Ward gave a commitment last week at Bounemouth that the proposed changes would be brought to the unions conference this year open to motions and any new agreement would be subject to another ballot of the membership. So you are not voting on an unspecified change to the IR framework.

It wont be anything like the POL framework as the interfaces are totally different as is your structure which is based on territories where as Royal Mails are based on Divisions.

This is another reason why it is important that your local rep attends the local reps briefings. I do sometimes wonder if any of the posters who slag off the deal or slag off the negotatiors have ever negotiated an important agreement on behalf of their members. If they have then you know why things are in the agreement and exactly why they are in their and why they are worded like that. In this agreement pratcically every page was fought on, thats why when I hear some of the rubbish posted on here ranging from we wont get the 3.5 % in the third year, we will be on unlimited delivery spans , we will get 10 d2d , we wont get improved attendances and we wont have less Saturdays and we wont be able to perform D2D within our work time well simply you have not read the agreement and the cross references within the Generic Operational Framework or the deployment framework.

Look all the spin in the world do not make you right.

The one thing I can accept why people are voting no is if they are losing money over the 42 weeks per year when they perform D2D and over 52 weeks of the supplement. I know that there are thousands of members in this bracket and I therefore understand this issue. But please dont spin the rest of it, in a 90 page agreement there is a lot to be explained this is why the union has decided to hold face to face meetings with every single unit rep in the UK. The agreement does need explaining and why things are worded in that way.

Do not under estimate the fact that Roger Poole and ACAS will oversea the agreement, yes some people may mock that but they were in the room and know for example that everyone in deliveries who wants less saturdays will get them as this is the first thing that happens before any step of the revison procdure read it on page 31. The only reason on page 29 that it says the majority is that in many offices in the country there are Saturday only part timers well you could hardly give them one in four Saturdays off , plus some on Wallington schemes ( one week off in six ) may not wish to change.

Now lastly some comments on here about my DOM said this or that is complete rubbish. We all know by now the DOMs will do whatever there told to do. Last week in Rugby all managers of a senior level were told by Higson, Tolhurst and Cameron that they have to work with the CWU with the full terms of this agreement and cannot adopt their own policies.

Yes we still need to see if their words are also matched with their actions.

Now lastly I have noticed that over the last two weeks the level of debate on here has become to slag any one off with an alternative opinion. Well Royal Mail chat was never designed in that way and whilst I have not seen eye to eye with some posters we have had sensible debates. Dont ruin this site or some like myself will just switch off and then your be left with all the same views would be rather boring then. However if you put a sensible arguement then am more than happy to have a debate.

[Cut Off King]

Dingo, personaly I think that the major problem that we all have with the agreement is that

1-WE DONT TRUST RM TO KEEP TO THE AGREEMENT
2-Thousands of members will lose money in this agreement.

Nobody should be worse off while other member are gaining, the books should have been balanced to make us all equal as possible
And the CWU ( rightly or wrongly ) are being seen to have given in to RM on almost everything that they asked for and are sideing with RM

This may or may not be the situation, BUT that is how many member percieve it to be.

[packmule]

Dingo, personaly I think that the major problem that we all have with the agreement is that

1-WE DONT TRUST RM TO KEEP TO THE AGREEMENT
2-Thousands of members will lose money in this agreement.

Nobody should be worse off while other member are gaining, the books should have been balanced to make us all equal as possible
And the CWU ( rightly or wrongly ) are being seen to have given in to RM on almost everything that they asked for and are sideing with RM

This may or may not be the situation, BUT that is how many member percieve it to be.

Spot on your majesty

[edo10]

totally agree with the king ,thousands will be worse off ,where would we be if they had voted no to strike action last year ?a deal for everyone or no deal at all

[MinisterofCucumber]

Dingo, you wrote:

"Changing the IR framework has been in every agreement since the way forward and there has yet to be changed."

Please will you post the relevant parts of these agreements. I found this bit in the 2007 Pay and Modernisation agreement:

" Joint Working Group 1 - relationships will consider how to improve industrial relations within Royal Mail, including arrangements for negotiation, consultation and decision making, the management of change, personnel procedures and practises covering issues like attendance, conduct and performance management."

It is a big jump from that to this:

"We will review and simplify the IR framework with consistent principles by Autumn 2010 which reflect our new relationship."

This looks like a commitment to change the IR framework by Autumn 2010.

[Martin Walsh]

Dingo, you wrote:

"Changing the IR framework has been in every agreement since the way forward and there has yet to be changed."

Please will you post the relevant parts of these agreements. I found this bit in the 2007 Pay and Modernisation agreement:

" Joint Working Group 1 - relationships will consider how to improve industrial relations within Royal Mail, including arrangements for negotiation, consultation and decision making, the management of change, personnel procedures and practises covering issues like attendance, conduct and performance management."

It is a big jump from that to this:

"We will review and simplify the IR framework with consistent principles by Autumn 2010 which reflect our new relationship."

This looks like a commitment to change the IR framework by Autumn 2010.

We had a special conference on SCS which tried to change the IR framework in 2000 and in the National Agreement on Pay and Major change ( SDD ) the following was included FUTURE INDUSTRIAL RELATIONS- Royal Mail and CWU are committed to reaching an agreement on a new industrial relations on a New Industrial relations framework and structure by March 2004.

In addition it was in the securing our future agreement in 2005 and PAY and Mod in 2007 and I was on that joint working group which is refered to.

Like I said their is often a desire to change the IR framework after a dispute but sometimes a lot of other things get in the way and it is not the highest on anyones piority.

[el_cartero]

IR framework sux

[Martin Walsh]

shame - all that work and you still failed us

The CWU's attitude towards part time employees remains abusive.

2010 - the biggest pay cut in history of man - £50 a week deduction.

and a measly £200 lump of s**t

Thats a £2600 loss a year .

Like i say - abused

How do you work out that figure ? I would be intrested to know , bearing in mind your pay will go up by the hourly rate going up from the shorter working week. So I am not doubting you may lose but I would want to know how you lose £50 per week .

[el_cartero]

shame - all that work and you still failed us

The CWU's attitude towards part time employees remains abusive.

2010 - the biggest pay cut in history of man - £50 a week deduction.

and a measly £200 lump of s**t

Thats a £2600 loss a year .

Like i say - abused

How do you work out that figure ? I would be intrested to know , bearing in mind your pay will go up by the hourly rate going up from the shorter working week. So I am not doubting you may lose but I would want to know how you lose £50 per week .

im part time but start early so was getting grandad alowace - £15 made £38 a week on d2d. thats £53 your offer is to pay me £8.

Loss = £45 a week.

[el_cartero]

What will the hourly rate go up to ? With a shorter working week...

Are you talking abotu the %2? or is there another thing ?

[Martin Walsh]

shame - all that work and you still failed us

The CWU's attitude towards part time employees remains abusive.

2010 - the biggest pay cut in history of man - £50 a week deduction.

and a measly £200 lump of s**t

Thats a £2600 loss a year .

Like i say - abused

How do you work out that figure ? I would be intrested to know , bearing in mind your pay will go up by the hourly rate going up from the shorter working week. So I am not doubting you may lose but I would want to know how you lose £50 per week .

I am a bit confused the only shift allowances touched are £12 and £6 and they are paid pro rata to part timers now so i am not sure where your £15 comes from ? I persume you currently have 700 delivery points and you perform 3 door to door every week discounting christmas and leave.

[el_cartero]

Ive got to go now dingo.

[MinisterofCucumber]

Thanks for the reply, Dingo.

Don't you think you are taking a big risk making a commitment to change the IR framework by Autumn 2010 in the hope that management won't get round to making you honour it?

[Martin Walsh]

Ive got to go now dingo.

So you wont be losing £45 will you !!