Out of touch

[foger]

In any situation where leaders are out of touch with the led, then disaster will soon follow. Like the Romanovs in Russia being out of touch with the peasants. Or indead, Hitler being out of touch with his troops on the eastern front. The latest disaster, the credit crunch, the creditors were out of touch with the borrowers. Which brings us in no small way to the state of Royal Mail. Management are so out of touch with the work force it is doubtful they are living on the same planet, let alone the same company. Allan Leighton for all his faults recognized this problem, and that is why he jumped ship, because he knew that management was out of touch but he came to realize that the shareholder (the government) didn't care. Not only do the government not care, they actually want Royal Mail to fail. And we all know why. For privatisation reasons.

[peejay14]

Let me be one of the first to say that I think I agree here (unsure about the 'For privatisation reasons.' bit, even although that belief is heartily held across this board). I have been persuaded by views given to me on this board that the company management needs to do more. Still, however, as those contributors to my persuasion know only too well, I am not of a mind to make a stand against the management, but rather to work with them and force them to listen by perseverance. I'm new (18 months a postie) to the company and still fresh enough to want to keep on tryin', and still fresh enough to continue takin' the flack on here for a perceived lack of bone in my back (to which suggestion I at first wondered: how do they think I manage to carry my mail pouch then? ).

[Pat Ostman]

work with them and force them to listen by perseverance

Mutually exclusive?

[peejay14]

work with them and force them to listen by perseverance

Mutually exclusive?

For the sake of other weary readers of my views on how to square that circle, best not to get me started. It's enough that I agreed with the original post. Perhaps I should agree more often.

[Pat Ostman]

work with them and force them to listen by perseverance

Mutually exclusive?

For the sake of other weary readers of my views on how to square that circle, best not to get me started. It's enough that I agreed with the original post. Perhaps I should agree more often.

Sorry mate but if there is a flaw in someone's plan, expect it to be exposed

You will not change the mind of the emperor by admiring his clothes

[stokes11eg]

Sorry P'J; you will never get this Management to listen to you.Yuo may hink at this moment because you are working with them, they will appreciate you, and reward you for your loyalty. just wait for the one day you have to ask a 'favour ' back---ha.ha.

[TrueBlueTerrier]

work with them and force them to listen by perseverance

For how long there has to be a limit----- AFAIK its 5 years we have been trying to get management to listen to concerns of the Posties, evidenced by the strikes of 2007 but do they listen.

For instance a quote from 2006 before I joined this site

Just before I left, the management weren't even making up excuses as to why they weren't opening the cage and letting us leave the office. We'd all be queing up to go for sometimes a good hour or so. The guys in the cage had finished sorting out the specials long ago and were as annoyed as us with all the waiting around.

I can't be the only postman who wished their managers would all die of coffee related heart attacks? hehe

[bunkerland]

takin' the flack on here for a perceived lack of bone in my back (to which suggestion I at first wondered: how do they think I manage to carry my mail pouch then? ).

Trolley?

[Night Tonic]

To my mind it matters little how much most pontificate the lack of leadership in the CWU and how tough the management are. You'll change nothing and we have gone from another phase of "we can only win" (hi axeman types) to "how can I get the sack" and "I'm leaving the union". Any resilience could be compared to a wet paper bag or "all mouth and trousers". PJ is nearer the truth than you realise. Its one thing fighting to retain working conditions but being blind to the fact that we're shrinking as a business is quite another. I still think Leighton was on the ball when he pushed Brown to give REAL shares to workers. Sadly it was refused.

[snoddy]

To my mind it matters little how much most pontificate the lack of leadership in the CWU and how tough the management are. You'll change nothing and we have gone from another phase of "we can only win" (hi axeman types) to "how can I get the sack" and "I'm leaving the union". Any resilience could be compared to a wet paper bag or "all mouth and trousers". PJ is nearer the truth than you realise. Its one thing fighting to retain working conditions but being blind to the fact that we're shrinking as a business is quite another. I still think Leighton was on the ball when he pushed Brown to give REAL shares to workers. Sadly it was refused.

Gotta agree with NT comments on shares. Its about time we all got real the only ones benefitting from opposing the john lewis style system are the CWU. The benefits for the individual worker would be much greater under this type of system. Sadly the CWU would be surplus to requirements and that is the reason why they convinced you all it was a bad idea. Similarly teamworking is also the sensible option just as it is in all other working environments.

[bunkerland]

Its one thing fighting to retain working conditions but being blind to the fact that we're shrinking as a business is quite another.

I just can't understand how agreeing to make 65000 job cuts in the last few years can be construed as being "blind........" !
The union has worked with Royal Mail to make massive cuts in the outgoings of this business,but surely there comes a point when there's just nothing left to cut!

As for PJ's posts being nearer the truth? I agree the ideas behind them may be sincere and laudable to an extent,the fact is however,it's all just so bloody naive! For me,time and time again his posts rely on the misplaced theory that Royal Mail is a caring employer who's desperate to make sure your wages and working conditions are good! Sorry,but that's not been my experience in twenty years in this place,every pay rise or gain in anything has been a battle(more so of late)!!

[TrueBlueTerrier]

To my mind it matters little how much most pontificate the lack of leadership in the CWU and how tough the management are. You'll change nothing and we have gone from another phase of "we can only win" (hi axeman types) to "how can I get the sack" and "I'm leaving the union". Any resilience could be compared to a wet paper bag or "all mouth and trousers". PJ is nearer the truth than you realise. Its one thing fighting to retain working conditions but being blind to the fact that we're shrinking as a business is quite another. I still think Leighton was on the ball when he pushed Brown to give REAL shares to workers. Sadly it was refused.

Gotta agree with NT comments on shares. Its about time we all got real the only ones benefitting from opposing the john lewis style system are the CWU. The benefits for the individual worker would be much greater under this type of system. Sadly the CWU would be surplus to requirements and that is the reason why they convinced you all it was a bad idea. Similarly teamworking is also the sensible option just as it is in all other working environments.

There is one really big drawback to John Lewis type of shares. When the business has to decide on higher basic rate of hourly pay (and therefore pensions) or paying out dividends on shares they will always go for the shares as it makes the business look better as an investment and its cheaper for them in the long run.

There are short term gains to having John Lewis or even market type shares but in the medium to long term its a gamble which can go really well or fall about round or ears.

Short term wage rises are not as good as shares but they outperform in the long run because the % gain on the basic wage rate is never lost, unless we agree to a cut in wages, and each year we get a raise then the greater % gained from the starting position.

As the say remember shares can go down as well as up, and with a £10,000,000,0000 deficit making us technically (if not in reality) bankrupt the returns are going to be that good until HMG deal with the pensions issue.

[Night Tonic]

Yes they do, although I know many who did very well out of shares. Never regretted buying so many in Wetherspoons thats for sure. The whole point of having real shares is that input would have had a better return than whats being offered now. Having a financial interest makes a big difference.

[TrueBlueTerrier]

Yes they do, although I know many who did very well out of shares. Never regretted buying so many in Wetherspoons thats for sure. The whole point of having real shares is that input would have had a better return than whats being offered now. Having a financial interest makes a big difference.

Thing is even with the "real" shares AL and AC were trying to get the government to let us have would have just as useless as the colleagueshares we have now. The reason is that the shares themselves would not have been the ones like the FTSE100 or 250 ones where we can influence decisions and address any concerns in the direction of the business at an AGM. The shares they were trying to sell did not have that option available.

In fact after researching it the only differences I can find is that colleagueshares are time limited and the shares they wanted were not, and that the preferred scheme was based on 20% of the value of company at any point in their lifetime.

BTW I have no objection to shares in fact I have a fair amount in Standard Life though at present they are not doing that well, still in profit but only just.

[norbert]

Its one thing fighting to retain working conditions but being blind to the fact that we're shrinking as a business is quite another.

I just can't understand how agreeing to make 65000 job cuts in the last few years can be construed as being "blind........" !
The union has worked with Royal Mail to make massive cuts in the outgoings of this business,but surely there comes a point when there's just nothing left to cut!

As for PJ's posts being nearer the truth? I agree the ideas behind them may be sincere and laudable to an extent,the fact is however,it's all just so bloody naive! For me,time and time again his posts rely on the misplaced theory that Royal Mail is a caring employer who's desperate to make sure your wages and working conditions are good! Sorry,but that's not been my experience in twenty years in this place,every pay rise or gain in anything has been a battle(more so of late)!!

they are naive - it's a miracle if yearly negotiations don't end up with a threatened or a real strike