Why Do the CWU...

[faithlilly]

Negotiate local agreements with Royal Mail management when when it suits management they disregard the agreement by claiming that it is not Royal Mail policy and the CWU do nothing ? My partner was sacked because management did not adhere to a locally agreed procedure concerning AOD.At his appeal he was told the local agreement wasn't Royal Mail policy and therefore didn't count and the CWU have done nothing to defend there own agreement. They have refused to represent my partner at tribunal and have used the Royal Mails' lies at his appeal as justification for doing so. You really couldn't make it up.

[k979aaa]

Negotiate local agreements with Royal Mail management when when it suits management they disregard the agreement by claiming that it is not Royal Mail policy and the CWU do nothing ? My partner was sacked because management did not adhere to a locally agreed procedure concerning AOD.At his appeal he was told the local agreement wasn't Royal Mail policy and therefore didn't count and the CWU have done nothing to defend there own agreement. They have refused to represent my partner at tribunal and have used the Royal Mails' lies at his appeal as justification for doing so. You really couldn't make it up.

I am afraid it has parallel's with the rest of the country and we are all being screwed for want of a better word. By the rich :cfo & :lfo and powerfull :mfo and greedy GORDON BROWN and his ilk and no union can prevent this nor it seam's even look after their members best interest's!.

[stokes11eg]

Dear Faithfully...so you have suused the unions out---help for some and not others.And then
they, and the militants wonder why more and more members are coming out!
Just for the record. I lived through the turbulent days of the seventies and eighties, and every man(and woman)
, stood shoulder to shoulder, in support of their unions , and all their fellow workers, to the point of starvation and financial ruin. We were happy to do it, because THEN, the unions were fighting for the benefit of all.
I do not know what has went wrong with Unions now, they themselves are more responsible for the division
in the ranks than Management. I think it's about time they did Satisfaction survey, and find out how people really
feel about their Representation of us. ---If I could I would apply for a rebate of my fees!!!!

[wranglered]

. They have refused to represent my partner at tribunal and have used the Royal Mails' lies at his appeal as justification for doing so. You really couldn't make it up.

seen it this week myself with one of my members.....CWU using RM's verdict to justify no help.....

sod the union...it is not that hard to go to an ET on your own....

[norbert]

Negotiate local agreements with Royal Mail management when when it suits management they disregard the agreement by claiming that it is not Royal Mail policy and the CWU do nothing ? My partner was sacked because management did not adhere to a locally agreed procedure concerning AOD.At his appeal he was told the local agreement wasn't Royal Mail policy and therefore didn't count and the CWU have done nothing to defend there own agreement. They have refused to represent my partner at tribunal and have used the Royal Mails' lies at his appeal as justification for doing so. You really couldn't make it up.

sounds very disingenuous and goalposts and goalposts being moved by RM , it sounds if they are stonewalling you as it's unfair detriment re Health & Safety which is punishable in a Industrial Tribunal - secondly RM are being monitored by the Health & Safety Executive so RM don't want anyone making trouble for them - to teach people a lesson ; RM hound people through the door - they hope people are that sick of them to give them any trouble - with appeals it's just something to delay or put people off tribunals

RM have always regarded themselves above the law , nowadays with the Senior & Middle Management they've got - they operate at the limit of what's legal at the best of times and that's being very kind !

The Union locally , sound terrified of RM , nationally they go on a percentage of possible wins , if anything looks like falling under it , the CWU will be reluctant to represent you .
Also the CWU can be as equally as bad as RM with all the politics and handwringing , it sounds if they are covering for people , trying to close ranks as it's an embarrassment and see you as a bit of a troublemaker / loose canon - also too many in the CWU are used to a time when management were "relatively " benign - they are anything but now - there is a lot of politics and pressure with some awful aggressive middle managers .

To be fair to some reps - they are whipping boys , both for Management and Staff as any agreements are routinely ignored due to all the pressure from on high - those reps don't get the support from higher up the union .

I'd see a specialist employment solicitor pronto - it sounds like neither the CWU nor RM want anyone to push it - it's just a game of chance to them - I'd call RM's bluff and do what they don't want you to do - a little word with a local rag's journalist can put a lot of pressure on RM - with ACAS there's too much handwringing - I'd expect RM to settle just before the Tribunal is due , to shut you and your other half up - they are that brutally cynical

[wranglered]

norbert - summed up to perfection.

[marky]

as i said before the cwu with bunter and the clowns he has in his pocket at the helm is a toothless tiger and just love spending the members money on whatever they want.
time for a new postal union..the cwu is dead a dead loss..

[Martin Walsh]

It easy to knock the CWU but the fact is we are still a strong union with 85% membership levels across the country with the cities pushing into the 90s.

With regards to the industrial tribunals i have a resprsented quite a few members at them and I have to say that most tribunal chairs instantly see that the attendance procedure is a national agreement and providing they have followed the process fairly then will see the decesion to dismiss as fair.

With regards to local agreements on the attendance procedure Royal Mail nationaly gave notice on these in 2003 as part of the reslution to the unoffical action which swept the country following the National NO vote and the London weighting strike.

Now with regards to creating another postal union it just not going happen. You might get pockets of the country within different unions like the GMB in belfast but there is never going to be a different national union.

In any case the CWU is still one of the strongest unions around . Off course they are polices which we disagree on but we get a vote on and in the pay and mod agreement which people still moan about its a fact that only 9 branchs in the whole of the union voted no.

With regards to the Belfast situration and as someone who went to the march of the falls road and shankhill road on their strike and also went to the Celebration Do in the fishmarket and have a few freinds from there I know some of the problems. But the answer is not to leave the cwu but to change the cwu from within. It can be done and we did it before when we didt like what John Keggie did and the then postal executive who endorsed the way forward.

[Tman]

norbert - summed up to perfection.

Or not.
The union representation is there to see rules and procedures are followed, NOT to get the "guilty" off, but then whatever the union does or achieves isn't enough in some eyes.
To suggest deeper motives behind the decision is to believe in conspiracy theories.

[norbert]

norbert - summed up to perfection.

If RM claim ignorance or deny and things are brought to attention - and then choose to take no action , it can actually strengthen the employees case - as for settlements to avoid tribunals , it can be argued it's effectively a form of bullying - to employ expensive solicitors , barristers etc to avoid accusations of incompetence can be see as misuse of either shareholder's money in the private sector or public money elsewhere i.e. " RM will defend it's position in any tribunal " .

The problem is RM don't get the inherent contradictions of in "not undermining local management" - this backfired badly with the Bristol 3 and at Burslem .

There's the " little " matter of the Employment Rights Act 2006 re unfair detriment + The Trade Union Reform & Employment Rights Act 1993 again re detriment
http://www.hazards.org/whistleblowers/victimisation.pdf

Whilst it's true that Employment Tribunals are more interested in whether RM followed procedure or not - not necessarily the rights and wrongs and the CWU is in to see fair play - RM have come unstuck due to their inflexibility , being judgmental , putting a too simple structure on things etc - there is also the issue of adverse inferences that can be drawn - suspicious issues .

I've heard the bluff and bluster on the corporate and fluffy sites - some individuals out of misplaced loyalty ( quite a percentage don't hold back about RM and/or have got disillusioned post strike ) , will broker no criticism of RM whatsoever and their responses - i.e . someone's been reading the SocIalist Worker too often etc , etc are crass , predictable and risible . Also some of the identities of some posters are allegedly a bit dubious - a minority sometimes come over to "the dark side" or spy on "the darkside" - also who is calling who paranoid or at least being over sensitive to criticism of RM ? or seemed to have read the De Vinci Code too often - that tends to come from a culture of fear / very autocratic /negative style and pressure/instuitionalized bullying down the RM food chain

[BELIAL]

Negotiate local agreements with Royal Mail management when when it suits management they disregard the agreement by claiming that it is not Royal Mail policy and the CWU do nothing ? My partner was sacked because management did not adhere to a locally agreed procedure concerning AOD.At his appeal he was told the local agreement wasn't Royal Mail policy and therefore didn't count and the CWU have done nothing to defend there own agreement. They have refused to represent my partner at tribunal and have used the Royal Mails' lies at his appeal as justification for doing so. You really couldn't make it up.

If what you state is correct, then the implications for all CWU members are huge. The last agreement placed the emphasis on local trials;negotiations and agreements.

[norbert]

Negotiate local agreements with Royal Mail management when when it suits management they disregard the agreement by claiming that it is not Royal Mail policy and the CWU do nothing ? My partner was sacked because management did not adhere to a locally agreed procedure concerning AOD.At his appeal he was told the local agreement wasn't Royal Mail policy and therefore didn't count and the CWU have done nothing to defend there own agreement. They have refused to represent my partner at tribunal and have used the Royal Mails' lies at his appeal as justification for doing so. You really couldn't make it up.

If what you state is correct, then the implications for all CWU members are huge. The last agreement placed the emphasis on local trials;negotiations and agreements.

this MAY get very silly as RM will feel obliged to defend that manager to the very last - should be a Barrister's / Solicitor's wet dream ?

[faithlilly]

Negotiate local agreements with Royal Mail management when when it suits management they disregard the agreement by claiming that it is not Royal Mail policy and the CWU do nothing ? My partner was sacked because management did not adhere to a locally agreed procedure concerning AOD.At his appeal he was told the local agreement wasn't Royal Mail policy and therefore didn't count and the CWU have done nothing to defend there own agreement. They have refused to represent my partner at tribunal and have used the Royal Mails' lies at his appeal as justification for doing so. You really couldn't make it up.

If what you state is correct, then the implications for all CWU members are huge. The last agreement placed the emphasis on local trials;negotiations and agreements.

That's how I feel B. My partner had an AOD. There is a local agreement in his area that states that a postperson must be told that his absence may be counted at the time of reporting the accident. This did not happen and it wasn't until 2 months later, and after my partner had had a run-in with the dismissing manager, that it was retrospectively counted. The line manager who my partner reported the accident to said at his appeal that she didn't realise the accident would result in an absence and therefore didn't warn him it may be counted, even though my partner had already been off for a week and the reason he had actually been in the office the day the accident report was filled in was to give in his doctors certificate for another week, which he gave to HER. Both the appeal manager and the CWU said that her assumption had been reasonable. The CWU basically bought the managements lies, hook,line and sinker. The union rep who represented my partner at his stage 3 handled things really badly and I can't help but feel that there's also a certain amount of backside covering involved in the CWUs decision not to represent my partner.
The CWU are letting the RM walk all over their members by not fighting for their own agreements to be adhered to and when that starts happening it raises the obvious question...just what are the CWU for ?

[TrueBlueTerrier]

norbert - summed up to perfection.

Or not.
The union representation is there to see rules and procedures are followed, NOT to get the "guilty" off, but then whatever the union does or achieves isn't enough in some eyes.
To suggest deeper motives behind the decision is to believe in conspiracy theories.

Has anyone actually suggested that. If so I would be pleased if anyone could point out where for reference because I have been searching for 15 minutes, mind you I am a little drunk after a night out. (week off )

I believe the reply and post as quoted all refer to a possible breach in the rules and procedures as perceived by an employee, and they believe the Union representation was not as good as perhaps as it could have been. Also seeing as faithlilly is the partner of the aggrieved member perhaps her belief in a Conspiracy Theory is not too far fetched and our acceptance or non acceptance of her theory must be coloured by that.

I sometimes wish I could see things as Black and White and unblurred as apparently some do on here, I always think that they are shades of grey in everything, people will always try to present themselves in the best possible light even if they know they have done wrong, or made a mistake; its human nature.

[Tman]

Has anyone actually suggested that. If so I would be pleased if anyone could point out where for reference because I have been searching for 15 minutes, mind you I am a little drunk after a night out. (week off )

Here's some (alleged) deeper motives for you then-

The Union locally , sound terrified of RM , nationally they go on a percentage of possible wins , if anything looks like falling under it , the CWU will be reluctant to represent you .
Also the CWU can be as equally as bad as RM with all the politics and handwringing , it sounds if they are covering for people , trying to close ranks as it's an embarrassment and see you as a bit of a troublemaker / loose canon - also too many in the CWU are used to a time when management were "relatively " benign - they are anything but now - there is a lot of politics and pressure with some awful aggressive middle managers

I believe the reply and post as quoted all refer to a possible breach in the rules and procedures as perceived by an employee, and they believe the Union representation was not as good as perhaps as it could have been.

Possibly so, and without knowing ALL the facts behind this particular case, who could say otherwise? It may be RM or the employee (or combination of both) at fault here, but who's to make a valid judgement (other than the same old "RM's fault innit" faction's mantra, so beloved of some on here).
RM are well-known for cocking up tribunals etc, but then some staff are dismissed without a murmur from the CWU, which comes back to the original point that it's the CWU's job to see that the correct procedures are followed.

people will always try to present themselves in the best possible light even if they know they have done wrong, or made a mistake; its human nature

Ain't that the truth.