Stage 2 appeal

[drevil1969uk]

Can anyone tell me if you can appeal at this stage?

If yes think i have grounds, if not then can i ask for another interview as i was told i could appeal against a stage 2 (isnt on paper but had a cwu rep present and he heard the manager say i could do so more than once)

[bogstandard]

You can appeal conduct code but not attendance proceedure.
Are you saying appeal your appeal decision?
Dont think so, but if you can get the appeals manager to confirm what you said in their notes its probably worth a punt on the grounds that they don't know what thy're doing.

[kay_thebigbird]

Can anyone tell me if you can appeal at this stage?

If yes think i have grounds, if not then can i ask for another interview as i was told i could appeal against a stage 2 (isnt on paper but had a cwu rep present and he heard the manager say i could do so more than once)

It depends on why you were put on the stage 2,if it was something under the DDA act or a accident on duty that has been logged then you can appeal,a postie that I know actually went to Employment Tribunal over his stage 2 with the CWU backing , but his was classed as discrimination he has a disability.

[norbert]

Can anyone tell me if you can appeal at this stage?

If yes think i have grounds, if not then can i ask for another interview as i was told i could appeal against a stage 2 (isnt on paper but had a cwu rep present and he heard the manager say i could do so more than once)

It depends on why you were put on the stage 2,if it was something under the DDA act or a accident on duty that has been logged then you can appeal,a postie that I know actually went to Employment Tribunal over his stage 2 with the CWU backing , but his was classed as discrimination he has a disability.

this is it - because if you got to RTU , if there's DDA or H&S - AOD issues - the dismissal may not stand up in a tribunal - re . taking RM to IT on a Stage 2 on DDA act - RM would have had every chance to rescind that decision through greviance procedure so that person could hardly be classed as a troublemaker trying to cause a stir .

Let's just say it's a combination of pressure from above and RM picking their victims very carefully as most bullies do , the only problem is that anyone who has the gall to stand up to RM is deemed to be a loose cannon .

If people do have AOD's or HSE issues with RM , it's best to report them to the DHSS as industrial accidents or report them to the HSE , that way it's more difficult for RM to close ranks

[drevil1969uk]

cheers got a few replies! this was a second stage sickness. I have a cwu rep who was present in the meeting and it was said more than once by the manager giving me my stage that i could appeal if he was to give the stage.
Now stage one was issued a month before i returned to work even tho i was off for work related stress (a manager being a dick and useless, been made up since, about right i say)

What im asking i guess really is, is it enough that me and my rep heard him say it? and if so is that enough to get it overturned based on incompetence perhaps? It was the same manager that gave me my first stage while i was off and in the knowledge that i couldnt come into work for the meeting (doctors advice) i was recommended to either leave it or put in a grievence to the management with regards to the stage 1 but as i got on with him, didnt want any more problems and in my right mind didnt think they would give me a stage 2 i left it.

I have been move to another area since but that manager isnt qualified to give me a stage so it was my old manager that gave the interview also, what im saying also is put in a grievence against this manager now? also appeal and say that the manager shouldnt of took it and bearing in mind he gave first one unfairly he was always bound to do the same with the second stage?

[kay_thebigbird]

cheers got a few replies! this was a second stage sickness. I have a cwu rep who was present in the meeting and it was said more than once by the manager giving me my stage that i could appeal if he was to give the stage.
Now stage one was issued a month before i returned to work even tho i was off for work related stress (a manager being a dick and useless, been made up since, about right i say)

What im asking i guess really is, is it enough that me and my rep heard him say it? and if so is that enough to get it overturned based on incompetence perhaps? It was the same manager that gave me my first stage while i was off and in the knowledge that i couldnt come into work for the meeting (doctors advice) i was recommended to either leave it or put in a grievence to the management with regards to the stage 1 but as i got on with him, didnt want any more problems and in my right mind didnt think they would give me a stage 2 i left it.

I have been move to another area since but that manager isnt qualified to give me a stage so it was my old manager that gave the interview also, what im saying also is put in a grievence against this manager now? also appeal and say that the manager shouldnt of took it and bearing in mind he gave first one unfairly he was always bound to do the same with the second stage?

Don't forget when you appeal against it,your appeal gets heard by another RM manager, say know more.

[brothermagrew]

cheers got a few replies! this was a second stage sickness. I have a cwu rep who was present in the meeting and it was said more than once by the manager giving me my stage that i could appeal if he was to give the stage.
Now stage one was issued a month before i returned to work even tho i was off for work related stress (a manager being a dick and useless, been made up since, about right i say)

What im asking i guess really is, is it enough that me and my rep heard him say it? and if so is that enough to get it overturned based on incompetence perhaps? It was the same manager that gave me my first stage while i was off and in the knowledge that i couldnt come into work for the meeting (doctors advice) i was recommended to either leave it or put in a grievence to the management with regards to the stage 1 but as i got on with him, didnt want any more problems and in my right mind didnt think they would give me a stage 2 i left it.

I have been move to another area since but that manager isnt qualified to give me a stage so it was my old manager that gave the interview also, what im saying also is put in a grievence against this manager now? also appeal and say that the manager shouldnt of took it and bearing in mind he gave first one unfairly he was always bound to do the same with the second stage?

Don't forget when you appeal against it,your appeal gets heard by another RM manager, say know more.

Surely isn't part of the whole point that correct minutes of these meetings are kept on record in typed format and that both parties should read these minutes of being a true and accurate account of what was actually said and where accounts differ then they to should be included.

[rockytony67]

Unfortunly you can't reverse a stage 1 or stage 2, if you take out a grievance and it is found against the manager it will make no difference to the stage, all you will get is an apology and a promise that the manager will be retrained on the attendance procedure(which he won't) it's only if it gets to stage 3 that these things will help you, as Brothermagrew says notes should be taking at all formal meetings, unfortnely many managers now do not bother, if you haven't got any notes you should take out a grievance, it may not help you now but it could in the future.

[drevil1969uk]

@madelin4 I think you may of hit the nail on the head, i think they may see me as that cos i dont allow them to pass s**t off to me so maybe cos i cant stay quiet when there is a problem i have created my own problem, just wish other collegues would stand up say hold on as well!!

@rockytony67 do you think that i can say that meeting was void in anyway then as i was mislead with regards to appealing? also i got stage off manager who i had done few favours for, lesson learnt

@brothermagrew i havent handed the form back yet is it worth haning it back and saying that other things were said in the meeting?

thanks for replies again people

[brothermagrew]

@madelin4 I think you may of hit the nail on the head, i think they may see me as that cos i dont allow them to pass s**t off to me so maybe cos i cant stay quiet when there is a problem i have created my own problem, just wish other collegues would stand up say hold on as well!!

@rockytony67 do you think that i can say that meeting was void in anyway then as i was mislead with regards to appealing? also i got stage off manager who i had done few favours for, lesson learnt

@brothermagrew i havent handed the form back yet is it worth haning it back and saying that other things were said in the meeting?

thanks for replies again people

drevil1969uk

That informed decision is for you alone to decide but as previously stated very weird that you were in the first place never given a copy of a true and accurate account of what was actually said at the meeting. So as you could challenge anything that has been missed out or indeed added in your absence and that you had the opportunity to agree with their version of things or not. As to the point of you and your rep actually hearing him say it, at least you have corroberation from an independant witness namely your rep.

[smudger54]

Make notes is a def (I've even known them to be recorded and transcripts done) all good ammo later if needed, if its anything like our place all managers have been told from up top to

issue all or at least 80% stage 1 & 2's then let the poor sod fight it at 3

(told to me by a newly made up manager who does not like the issue) Its all bully boy tactics just stay calm and and be overly polite some hate that even more

[norbert]

Let's just say it's a combination of pressure from above and RM picking their victims very carefully as most bullies do , the only problem is that anyone who has the gall to stand up to RM is deemed to be a loose cannon . QUOTE"""""""


Do you mean not being a yes anything for you sir/madam???? I am finding that the more you argue with them the more they come at you ????

Best way is not to argue too much but take everything up the union chain of command - regardless of what union bashing nonsense they've had their heads filled with - you've gone through the channels - word soon gets back - but some juvenile territorial managers regard it as telling tales out of class . :lfo :cfo

The word from Senior Management is that there is to be a "culture change " - obviously there's a lot of bad feeling about the very bitter strike and lack of leadership and control - I agree about the bit posted about being polite - most bullies are looking for a reaction .

They will see if you can stand up to a certain amount of bullying - if that fails they've got to try Plan B or C , RM tends to be one idea though .

Bullying is usually in proportion to personal inadequacy or to cover for poor management . There's also a lot of large but very fragile ego's as well

[smudger54]

Here is a quote from my friend

It certainly does not help with the lack of support from upstairs, they bark orders and we are expected to keep our gobs shut and do what they say. We are not allowed to make decisions or do what we are paid to do now, we are glorified key office staff now.

THAT'S FROM A MANAGER so some are just as peed off as the rest of us.

[brothermagrew]

Bullying is usually in proportion to personal inadequacy or to cover for poor management . There's also a lot of large but very fragile ego's as well

Sound pragmatic advice from norbet.

Bullying occurs when one person, typically (but not necessarily) in a position of power, authority, trust, responsibility, management, etc, feels threatened by another person, usually (but not always) a subordinate who is displaying qualities of ability, popularity, knowledge, skill, strength, drive, determination, tenacity, success, etc. The bully has conditioned himself/herself, or allowed himself/herself to be conditioned, to believe that he/she can never have these qualities which he/she sees readily in others.

Displaying high aggression and lacking appropriate interpersonal skills, the immature behaviour skills of the bully are insufficient to fulfil the duties and responsibilities of the position into which he/she has been, or allowed himself/herself to be, recruited or promoted. The nature and demands of the position may have changed over time, perhaps without being realised. If in a position of management, trust, etc, the bully is also unable or unwilling to accept responsibility for the physical and mental wellbeing of those is his/her charge.

Insecurity and a lack of confidence cause the bully to desire to control the individual using aggressive physical and psychological strategies. The bully seeks to increase his/her confidence, not by raising his/her own, but by bringing the other person down to below his/her, so that, in relative terms, he/she can feel good about himself/herself. This process is repeated on a regular basis and becomes both addictive and compulsive.

Through fear, domination is established, leading to disempowerment of, and loss of confidence by, the individual. In order to avoid having to face up to, tackle and overcome his/her own shortcomings, the bully seeks to project his/her own failings on to other people whilst at the same time actively abdicating responsibility for the consequences of his/her behaviour on others. If necessary, the bully abuses his/her position of power, or calls on those with power, to achieve these ends.

The bully's behaviour is exacerbated by his/her own predominant behaviour style, also by stress, change, uncertainty, financial pressures, the prospect of failing to meet budget targets, lack of resources, and being bullied himself/herself. Once initiated, it is stimulated by the victim's apparent low assertiveness, indecisiveness and approval seeking through the need to be valued.

[bogstandard]

When you get the typed up notes of the meeting retype them adding what if anything you feel has been omited.
Sign and date both copies and send them to the manager concerned asking THEM to (if they agree) sign (or make any changes) and return a copy.
Take notes at the meeting, (it is not the reps job) it's your meeting concerning your conduct/attendance. I know you'll probably need to answer questions, so on this occasion somethings got to give and this time it will have to be RM that waits till you're ready, and have finished your notes to that point. A great benefit to this is your thinking time has gone from 1-2 seconds to 10 or 15 seconds and they can always repeat it if you've forgotten the question.
Never forget, no matter how relevant, genuine, honest, caring, trustworthy etc........ you are, to Royal Mail you and your ilk are expendable liars who would sell thier mothers for a pint, packet of fags you know the rest.
Expect no satisfaction.
Expect to be lied to.
Expect to be frustrated.
Expect disappointment.