shift managers power

[drevil1969uk]

I work on the late shift and not too long ago we recieved a FSM, and in the process my area and job became non existent pretty much. I was given a job on the FSM until some manager had this bright idea to move me. I say its a bright idea for a few reasons. My job was a trucker and on my 318 it says i am still one.

Now here comes the bright idea bit, i was moved to an area and given a job that was trucking with a little bit of sorting, ok fair enough, but here lies the problem, my break time starts at about 5 minutes before a main dispatch is done so therefore the dispatches either dont get done or the managers do it. I made the managers aware of this as soon as i was put on this job but they begged me to change my break instead of leaving me were i was(do them a favour and get shafted? dont think so)

What happens regulary is that the packet staff (i am now in there area) throw bags in to yorkies (which i dispatch) but they dont do it properly. What i get is bags thrown in at wrong angles unsafely etc and have walked past yorks and bags have slid off!! They also were not strapping up the yorks. If i came back from break and nothing had been dispatched some yorkies would be to the top, bags unstacked correctly (unsafely) and no straps done up (only bottom one)

From day one on being put onto this job i have made my manager aware of the situation that the yorkies were unsafe to move cos people were not stacking bags properly and not strapping up yorkies and asked him to ask the rest of the staff to just be more careful with putting bags on and strap up (not alot and caring for fellow postie!) His response was to not say a word and do all the work himself! fair enough but when he isnt there it doesnt get done at all!! Which leads me to my point

Tonight from arriving back from my break i was confronted by a different line manger(not my usual one) and told to replace yorks that had been dispatched. Cos they had been dispatched and no empties replaced the staff took upon themselves to just throw the bags on the floor as if they were creating a bonfire, we are talking 20 bags in a very small space here. As well as that a york was ready to be dispatched but no straps were done up on the york.I told my manager that i would not be putting bags on yorks as it was unsafe to do so and that the york that was full i could not take out as the straps had not been done. The shift manager then got involved and told me I HAD to do it, I had already searched for the health and safety union rep and my other cwu rep who had finished and his phone was switched off.

Basically what im asking is does the shift manager have that sort of power, as in what would of been any consequences of me refusing, any advice please? Also the shift manager has threatened to move me to yet another area but as i am stated as being a trucker am i entitled to insist on staying on some kind of trucking job? I have already been moved from old area to FSM to new area already in only a few months so would be made to work in a fourth area all within a couple of months of each other

[andy2007]

A while ago, I was put in a position. Where I felt I had to refuse to carry out a task, which I felt was unsafe. The Manager specifically asked me if I was refusing a "reasonable request". I pointed out that it was an unreasonable request, and he asked me to take a few minutes to think about it. When I continued to refuse, I was taken into an Office, to discuss the matter. Once there. We discussed why I wouldn't do as he had asked. After a while, we agreed to disagree. Because the health and Safety issue was debatable.

I was lucky: The Manager followed the correct procedure, and knew my reputation for being a bit obsessive, where H&S is concerned. But in your case. Particularly as it's another debatable case (someone would have to make it safe), things may not have gone so well. Having said that: You can take things further, if necessary. And most importantly: You have the Law on your side. Just because SOMEONE would have to make the area (and the york) safe. It doesn't mean that it has to be YOU. It's up to the Manager to make the necessary arrangements to have the area made safe.

But above all: You could have made an official complaint against the Manager who has been letting them get away with unsafe practices for so long.

[Tman]

Just because SOMEONE would have to make the area (and the york) safe. It doesn't mean that it has to be YOU. It's up to the Manager to make the necessary arrangements to have the area made safe.
So wouldn't the manager reply," I AM making the necessary arrangements, and it's YOU who's moving the bags please"?
How is that an unreasonable request? How could the original poster justifiably refuse?

[bogstandard]

As useless as this sounds you're probably all right.
drevil, you have made your manager aware of the problem and they have taken it upon themselves to do an OPG's job which you don't have a problem with (personnally i do but thats my problem), but have you informed the relevant reps of all the issues you have highlighted here?
If you had a different manager who new nothing of your arrangement, from their point of view were they being unreasonable ?
Although, it is unfortunate that they did not see a problem in your work area becoming untidy and that this untidiness has hazzard and accident potential contained within it, and also that the SSOW for yorks was not followed.
Having said all this, now that the manager is aware of the potential hazzards that exist within this area, i would not expect it to happen again and i would also look immediately for a meeting with the IR, and H and S rep and the manager(s) concerned to resolve these issues.

[drevil1969uk]

@andy2007 I think today is when i go to my CWU rep and suggest making a complaint against my manager!! didnt know that i could do that.

@tman after manager moved a couple of bags there was a still a massive pile of bags on the floor and they were not able to be gotten around due the set up of the area. Also why should i pick up other peoples studff that they threw on the floor? literally even when i got back!! I mean why isnt the line manager seeing this happen early and making them put it all in to one york and be thrown off properly (yet again i dont think is hould be doing that anyway cos its not my fault i missed the dispatch!! but thats another matter)


@bogstandard i agree with you about managers doing OPGs work but fed up saying something and nothing happening. The problem was made aware to them from day one and for the first 2 or 3 weeks i mentioned it every day and got nothing in return so just shut up now, i dont like moaning to be honesT!! with the bit about manager arrangement my manager seemed to change while i was on break lol!!

What would happen if the same thing happened again? unreasonable request? im not allowed to take pictures at work am i? also i dont want to be moved from my area yet again!!

[brunswick]

when all of the planned changes to our work are made i'm afraid you will find a lot more managers doingphg work,permanently

[andy2007]

Just because SOMEONE would have to make the area (and the york) safe. It doesn't mean that it has to be YOU. It's up to the Manager to make the necessary arrangements to have the area made safe.
So wouldn't the manager reply," I AM making the necessary arrangements, and it's YOU who's moving the bags please"?
How is that an unreasonable request? How could the original poster justifiably refuse?

You can't be forced to work in an unsafe area. The manager either has to find a volunteer, or sort it out himself.

Drevil1969uk, you CAN take Photos at Work (unless there's a local agreement to the contrary). It's just Video which is banned.

[brothermagrew]

Just because SOMEONE would have to make the area (and the york) safe. It doesn't mean that it has to be YOU. It's up to the Manager to make the necessary arrangements to have the area made safe.
So wouldn't the manager reply," I AM making the necessary arrangements, and it's YOU who's moving the bags please"?
How is that an unreasonable request? How could the original poster justifiably refuse?

You can't be forced to work in an unsafe area. The manager either has to find a volunteer, or sort it out himself.

Drevil1969uk, you CAN take Photos at Work (unless there's a local agreement to the contrary). It's just Video which is banned.

The advice given in the excellent CWU Lighten the Load Safe Working on Delivery Guide with regards to serious and imminent danger is this:

Management must have a plan or appropriate procedures to be followed in the event of serious and imminent danger. However, in situations where for whatever reason there is an absence of guidance or instruction and in the light of the knowledge at their disposal at the time, staff may take appropriate steps to stop work and immediately proceed to a place of safety in the event of them being exposed to serious, imminent and unavoidable danger.

[drevil1969uk]

Update, tonight before break they did an early dispatch(which i did), when i returned from break a york was full and four bags were left leaning up against full york which had no straps done up, therefore i didnt think i could take it out. shift manager asked me what was going on and i said same problem as yesterday and it was unsafe.

He then had a go at me, he said something along the lines, the job you are doing is not a hard one, youre not here for the main dispatch (I told them that!!) and that if i wasent willing to work the way that he wanted me too he would have find me another job to do and put me somewhere else.

I replied that from day one i was not the right person to do that job as my break clashed with the time for the main dispatch and that i was upset that he had asked me to break rules which as far as i am aware is a H&S matter. He then said a meeting was to be arranged tommorrow with my shift rep (who has not been in all week, wonder if my shift manager realises!!) The meeting is to decide were he thinks i should be moved i think

Can anyone advise me on another matter, is it fair for me to say i cant move yorks if the straps are not done up?(only bottom one is done up)

[andy2007]

Update, tonight before break they did an early dispatch(which i did), when i returned from break a york was full and four bags were left leaning up against full york which had no straps done up, therefore i didnt think i could take it out. shift manager asked me what was going on and i said same problem as yesterday and it was unsafe.

He then had a go at me, he said something along the lines, the job you are doing is not a hard one, youre not here for the main dispatch (I told them that!!) and that if i wasent willing to work the way that he wanted me too he would have find me another job to do and put me somewhere else.

I replied that from day one i was not the right person to do that job as my break clashed with the time for the main dispatch and that i was upset that he had asked me to break rules which as far as i am aware is a H&S matter. He then said a meeting was to be arranged tommorrow with my shift rep (who has not been in all week, wonder if my shift manager realises!!) The meeting is to decide were he thinks i should be moved i think

Can anyone advise me on another matter, is it fair for me to say i cant move yorks if the straps are not done up?(only bottom one is done up)

No-one should be moving Yorks, which aren't straped properly. However, so long as the load is stable, you should be able to fasten the straps yourself. If it isn't stable: You need to get your Manager involved. Remember: It's your assessment of the stability of the load, which is important here. Because it's you, who is being expected to work there.

When you go into the meeting, make sure you take your H&S Rep in with you as well! Because this is a serious H&S issue. Also, you need to point out that you have made at least 2 Managers aware of the regular H&S breaches in that area. And that they have failed to do anything about it. It's also worth bearing in mind, that although the first incident you described can't possibly be argued to be safe, because of the quantity of Work piled up, in a small area. And the large number of unstrapped Yorks. The second incident, could potentially cause you problems.

The fact that you felt it was unsafe, will protect you. But your Manager, will no doubt accuse you of being overzealous. Just make sure that you give your H&S Rep all the details before the Meeting, and stick to your guns. DON'T LET THEM PUSH YOU AROUND, FOR TAKING H&S SERIOUSLY! And make sure that they record the fact that, the lack of action by the Managers, had lead to the situation in the first place. If they had enforced the SSOW in the first place, you would have been able to carry out your duties, without any argument.

I know that it is interfering with your Official Break. But that's a separate issue. Don't let them get away with suggesting that you are being deliberately obstructive, because of your break. Because they will probably try that one, to deflect the blame from themselves.

Good luck! You're an example to all those who are letting themselves be forced into taking unneccessary risks.

[Tman]

[No-one should be moving Yorks, which aren't straped properly. However, so long as the load is stable, you should be able to fasten the straps yourself. If it isn't stable: You need to get your Manager involved. Remember: It's your assessment of the stability of the load, which is important here.

And I always thought those H&S shock horror stories were Mail and Express journalistic inventions, but seemly not.
Watch out for those unfastened straps, you wouldn't want a nasty mail bag to begin to slide out......

[andy2007]

[No-one should be moving Yorks, which aren't straped properly. However, so long as the load is stable, you should be able to fasten the straps yourself. If it isn't stable: You need to get your Manager involved. Remember: It's your assessment of the stability of the load, which is important here.

And I always thought those H&S shock horror stories were Mail and Express journalistic inventions, but seemly not.
Watch out for those unfastened straps, you wouldn't want a nasty mail bag to begin to slide out......

It depends on what's in them Tman. From a H&S standpoint, there's the risk of sharp edges causing bruising (minor I know, but still unacceptable), or fragile, even glass items, which could cause injury, if they break on impact. Also, from a Customer Service standpoint, there is the risk of damage to fragile items. It's hardly a major inconvenience, to fasten the straps as you go. Which would prevent the problem.

I've said it before, and I'm saying it again: Health and Safety is everyones responsibility. Management need to provide appropriate SSOW, and we must follow them! Don't let anyone pressure you into contravening the SSOW. THEY ARE THERE FOR A REASON.

Have you any idea how many accidents and near misses there are in RM every year?
We need MORE people like drevil1969uk, if we're ever going to reduce them.

[drevil1969uk]

@everyone at this stage im going into work today in the knowledge i may be moved from that area for not doing the job how they want it done!! Cos of what andy said of being called over zealous the shift manager said he will move me!

@andy2007 As i said about unstable loads some are, some arent, but the way they are stacked make it risky as they are mostly put in outwards (mail bags and hope that makes sense) so therefore the middle lot of bags start to slide downwards and off/out the york. I couldnt fasten the york of the full york before because staff had put full bags in front of the york and there was no where for these bags to be moved, could only move york first then strap up! I have a problem with regards to my H&S rep, he is on leave for next two weeks!!!! They have said that about my break and said before that they were doing ME a favour by getting other people to dispatch for ME!!!!!!

@Tman you may mock but i have seen more than one bag/packet slide out from being stacked unsafely and no straps done up with no one near them (point being what happens if someone happens to be walking past? or the york is jiggled about to put the strap on and then the bag decides to slip.

@andy2007 again, there are sometimes small packets, large packets and over weight bags (another issue mentioned!!) All im asking is exactly that, to strap it as they go, i do try to do that myself but i cant do it if im not even there on break!!!! yesterday someone said to me about the full york, why dont people take it out and put an empty there? someone who doesnt work there regular i might add.

The stage im at now is cos i didnt bend the rules like the overtime fella used to that was on it i am at threat of being moved again, which doesnt seem that fair. Now i would like to stand my ground and stay on this area, why should i move cos everyone wont help there colleague out?? Without my H&S rep there i have no one to turn to with regards to this of it being unsafe. Ideally i would stay on this job and keep my break the same but im willing to do them a favour. What if i worked my break and went early? staying on the area of course but leaving once everything that needed doing was done, so not leaving any work behind me i mean. reckon they would be up for that? other than that cos my 318 states im a trucker i dont think i can be put on a sorting job and therefore would wanna stay doing some kind of trucking job (which i think im on the only other one thats left anyway) Can i refuse to do sorting?

[TrueBlueTerrier]

[No-one should be moving Yorks, which aren't straped properly. However, so long as the load is stable, you should be able to fasten the straps yourself. If it isn't stable: You need to get your Manager involved. Remember: It's your assessment of the stability of the load, which is important here.

And I always thought those H&S shock horror stories were Mail and Express journalistic inventions, but seemly not.
Watch out for those unfastened straps, you wouldn't want a nasty mail bag to begin to slide out......

So I am guessing as an Engineer you work with unsafe and unstrapped Yorks every working day. You could of course transpose the situation to a machine and would work on any Machine that has a safety guard which is worn or damaged, or perhaps is not secured properly.

I would say that with a stable load I would strap up a Yorky, but if I felt that it was unstable and I still went ahead and started to strap it up, and then a 11kg bag slipped and struck me on the head and injured me - I would be held responsible, quite rightly. H&S is not about the normal risk of injury is about the potential risk of injury and sometimes the risk is very small and sometimes huge, however the HSE does not differentiate. All reasonable steps should be taken by all employees, managers and employers to reduce the risk.

All the manager had to do in this case was to go to the section that was failing to strap the yorkies as they were loading them and advise them to follow the guidelines, the problem would then, hopefully, have been nipped in the bud and perhaps not reached its current stage.

[Tall Guy]

Update, tonight before break they did an early dispatch(which i did), when i returned from break a york was full and four bags were left leaning up against full york which had no straps done up, therefore i didnt think i could take it out. shift manager asked me what was going on and i said same problem as yesterday and it was unsafe.

He then had a go at me, he said something along the lines, the job you are doing is not a hard one, youre not here for the main dispatch (I told them that!!) and that if i wasent willing to work the way that he wanted me too he would have find me another job to do and put me somewhere else.

I replied that from day one i was not the right person to do that job as my break clashed with the time for the main dispatch and that i was upset that he had asked me to break rules which as far as i am aware is a H&S matter. He then said a meeting was to be arranged tommorrow with my shift rep (who has not been in all week, wonder if my shift manager realises!!) The meeting is to decide were he thinks i should be moved i think

Can anyone advise me on another matter, is it fair for me to say i cant move yorks if the straps are not done up?(only bottom one is done up)

not being funny, but why don't you do the straps up and wheel it out? You could change your break time to allow for the despatch as well?