Longs and shorts - question about reserves

[slave]

Apologies if this question has already been asked - a quick nosey and I couldn't see anything and I've not had chance to be on here as much as I would like recently so may have missed it..

At present I am a reserve so I get moved around from duty to duty and as such my days off vary or are the same from one week to the next.

An example; lets assume my office has these long/short hours (it doesn't, but similar-ish hours are being looked at with implementation soon):
Mon 8
Tue 7
Wed 8
Thu 9
Fri 9
Sat 7

Based on those hours, full-timers on their own walks would work 39-41 hours a week depending on their day off but over 6weeks the total hourage would work out the same as doing straight 8 hour days over that period (240).
Now, based on those hours above, if they had been implemented, over the last 6 weeks I would have actually worked 242 hours - thats 2 hours more than what I should have done.

Obviously I do not wish to work for free for a company that places no value on its staff!
So, does anyone have any information / experience of working with a long/short system when you are a reserve? Should I aim to work 40hours a week and ignore the longs/shorts or should there be some seperate system in place for reserves etc??

Any help or information greatly appreciated.

[k979aaa]

Apologies if this question has already been asked - a quick nosey and I couldn't see anything and I've not had chance to be on here as much as I would like recently so may have missed it..

At present I am a reserve so I get moved around from duty to duty and as such my days off vary or are the same from one week to the next.

An example; lets assume my office has these long/short hours (it doesn't, but similar-ish hours are being looked at with implementation soon):
Mon 8
Tue 7
Wed 8
Thu 9
Fri 9
Sat 7

Based on those hours, full-timers on their own walks would work 39-41 hours a week depending on their day off but over 6weeks the total hourage would work out the same as doing straight 8 hour days over that period (240).
Now, based on those hours above, if they had been implemented, over the last 6 weeks I would have actually worked 242 hours - thats 2 hours more than what I should have done.

Obviously I do not wish to work for free for a company that places no value on its staff!
So, does anyone have any information / experience of working with a long/short system when you are a reserve? Should I aim to work 40hours a week and ignore the longs/shorts or should there be some seperate system in place for reserves etc??

Any help or information greatly appreciated.

As far as i know i would only work forty hour's no more no less but i am not a rep!.

[pop it in pete]

All local agreements should have the words, you will not be expected to work your contractual weekly hours. Or words to that effect.

[POSTMAN]

There was another post on here and someone said with regards to long and shorts that it is an average over so many weeks.
As far as i'm aware and i would argue my arse off with it is that you only work 40hrs a week and NO MORE.
Just like the flexi 30min thing.
So say it comes to the end of the week and you have worked 34 hrs then on your last day you SHOULD only have to work 6hrs!
Again as far as i'm aware there is no BANKING of hrs so there is an average over so many weeks.

I've pointed this post to someone in the know as this seems to be cropping up a lot.

[k979aaa]

There was another post on here and someone said with regards to long and shorts that it is an average over so many weeks.
As far as i'm aware and i would argue my arse off with it is that you only work 40hrs a week and NO MORE.
Just like the flexi 30min thing.
So say it comes to the end of the week and you have worked 34 hrs then on your last day you SHOULD only have to work 6hrs!
Again as far as i'm aware there is no BANKING of hrs so there is an average over so many weeks.

I've pointed this post to someone in the know as this seems to be cropping up a lot.

yep BANKING of hour's is phase 4 and before you get to that phase 3 covering for one and another!.

[POSTMAN]

There was another post on here and someone said with regards to long and shorts that it is an average over so many weeks.
As far as i'm aware and i would argue my arse off with it is that you only work 40hrs a week and NO MORE.
Just like the flexi 30min thing.
So say it comes to the end of the week and you have worked 34 hrs then on your last day you SHOULD only have to work 6hrs!
Again as far as i'm aware there is no BANKING of hrs so there is an average over so many weeks.

I've pointed this post to someone in the know as this seems to be cropping up a lot.

yep BANKING of hour's is phase 4 and before you get to that phase 3 covering for one and another!.

Oh right cheers,stage 4 huh,howd that slip in!

[k979aaa]

There was another post on here and someone said with regards to long and shorts that it is an average over so many weeks.
As far as i'm aware and i would argue my arse off with it is that you only work 40hrs a week and NO MORE.
Just like the flexi 30min thing.
So say it comes to the end of the week and you have worked 34 hrs then on your last day you SHOULD only have to work 6hrs!
Again as far as i'm aware there is no BANKING of hrs so there is an average over so many weeks.

I've pointed this post to someone in the know as this seems to be cropping up a lot.

yep BANKING of hour's is phase 4 and before you get to that phase 3 covering for one and another!.

Oh right cheers,stage 4 huh,howd that slip in!

For that is the problem with half baked agreement's 1001 option's all over the country and if one get's in one place you can bet your life they will try to get it in the next office down the road!. WE SHOULD HAVE NEVER AGREED TO THIS FRAGMENTATION OF OUR SOLIDARITY!.

[POSTMAN]

Below is from the agreement and as far as i'm aware nothing has been decided yet!
Anyone else know anything.

5. PHASE 4
To assist development of a fourth Phase of Royal Mail modernisation,
consultation and negotiation will now take place in the following working groups.
The intention is for these joint working groups to develop national agreements,
where appropriate, by no later than the end of April 2008, to be deployed as
soon as possible thereafter.

Joint Working Group 1 – Relationships. will consider how to improve industrial
relations within Royal Mail, including arrangements for negotiation, consultation
and decision-making, the management of change, personnel procedures and
practices covering issues like attendance, conduct and performance
management.

Joint Working Group 2 – New Reward Framework will examine pay simplification
possibilities (within the existing pay bill), a new pay and reward package,
different pay models, reviewing on what the local element of the ColleagueShare
dividend for years 2 and 3 will be based and MTSF. The Group will also consider
how to implement monthly pay. It will also review annualised hours or banked
hours, flexible working, and possible changes to attendance patterns that could
both benefit the business and employees and is in line with the company’s
family-friendly policy. The group will decide whether it needs to operate sub
groups for any element of this.

Joint Working Group 3 – Future working. This group will look at the business’
future mail centre / delivery / network strategies and have an opportunity to
input to them.. It will develop proposals on how the business will best capture
the benefits of new technology, whilst continuing to consider the implications for
job security, and job design and the new delivery model. It will also look at the
strategies needed to grow and develop the business in a changing, competitive
environment

[k979aaa]

Below is from the agreement and as far as i'm aware nothing has been decided yet!
Anyone else know anything.

5. PHASE 4
To assist development of a fourth Phase of Royal Mail modernisation,
consultation and negotiation will now take place in the following working groups.
The intention is for these joint working groups to develop national agreements,
where appropriate, by no later than the end of April 2008, to be deployed as
soon as possible thereafter.

Joint Working Group 1 – Relationships. will consider how to improve industrial
relations within Royal Mail, including arrangements for negotiation, consultation
and decision-making, the management of change, personnel procedures and
practices covering issues like attendance, conduct and performance
management.

Joint Working Group 2 – New Reward Framework will examine pay simplification
possibilities (within the existing pay bill), a new pay and reward package,
different pay models, reviewing on what the local element of the ColleagueShare
dividend for years 2 and 3 will be based and MTSF. The Group will also consider
how to implement monthly pay. It will also review annualised hours or banked
hours, flexible working, and possible changes to attendance patterns that could
both benefit the business and employees and is in line with the company’s
family-friendly policy. The group will decide whether it needs to operate sub
groups for any element of this.

Joint Working Group 3 – Future working. This group will look at the business’
future mail centre / delivery / network strategies and have an opportunity to
input to them.. It will develop proposals on how the business will best capture
the benefits of new technology, whilst continuing to consider the implications for
job security, and job design and the new delivery model. It will also look at the
strategies needed to grow and develop the business in a changing, competitive
environment

Yes we have had phase 1 implemented but phase 2 has not been implemented in our office yet but it has been agreed (long and short's)!.

[pop it in pete]

Phase 1,2,3 or 4 the work force in my place havent got a sooby doo whats going on. Neither have the local management. Each side is being kept in the dark and the union is in danger of only representiing the die hard trade unionist as the rest of the workforce pull out. UNITED WE STAND DIVIDED WE FALL. Billy and Dave are watching the biggest colapse of a trade union since the N.U.M. under scargill. We are fast becoming as useless as U.S.D.A.W. the retail trade union. Why dont they just be honest about it all Royal Mail want a part time work force to deliver the mail each morning with minimum full time stafing to throw it off and a totaly flexible subserviant mail centre workforce to come and go at R.M.s beck and call. Truth is the union head office boys know it as well but wont come clean and say such things. They are too busy looking at our rivals for new members. Flexibility agreement ...........what a ****up!!!!

[lovejoy]

It is very clear in the agreement that nobodies contractual hours will change and 40 hours will be the FT week

Banked / Annualised hours will be discussed going forward but Confererence policies are clear that we should resist all forms of annualised hours. NO AGREEMENT HAS BEEN GIVEN TO BANKED HOURS. Merely a committment to look at them!

If you are a reserve and things are unclear i suggest you go to your rep asap and tell him/her of your concerns! There should be nobody in any units working annualised hours. I know people attack the senior union officials (hayes/ward etc) but we are only as strong as the weakest reps. I really do dread to think of some of the flexible working plans signed by SOME reps. The national guidlines were blatantly clear and in my opinion any decent rep would have no problems at all securing the £400 for little or nothing in return.

[POSTMAN]

NO AGREEMENT HAS BEEN GIVEN TO BANKED HOURS.

Cheers lj

[asbru]

Our flexibility agreement cost our workers nothing at all - in fact it ensured we have better terms than what we were already going by before the agreement! Our office had been losing 1 off IPS every time there was a vacant duty in the morning to prep, which is what our efficient summer staffing enabler now agrees - so now we only have to do that weeks 8-24, they can stuff it the rest of the year. We already had longs and shorts, now we've got them changed to ensure shorter saturdays. And we somehow still had 3 6-day-week duties in the office which will go down to 5 days finally, due to a complete revision that the staff asked for and has now been granted. £400 and better off at work, they can shove Phase 3 up their arses, we'll stop here thanks.

[DGP1]

Our flexibility agreement cost our workers nothing at all - in fact it ensured we have better terms than what we were already going by before the agreement! Our office had been losing 1 off IPS every time there was a vacant duty in the morning to prep, which is what our efficient summer staffing enabler now agrees - so now we only have to do that weeks 8-24, they can stuff it the rest of the year. We already had longs and shorts, now we've got them changed to ensure shorter saturdays. And we somehow still had 3 6-day-week duties in the office which will go down to 5 days finally, due to a complete revision that the staff asked for and has now been granted. £400 and better off at work, they can shove Phase 3 up their arses, we'll stop here thanks.

We lost all our town duties off IPS plus half our rural duties off IPS Of course our office is going to fail big time during the summer if the 20hr people don't work OT.

[asbru]

And this was agreed by your rep? I would have thought they would agree something that had at least a small chance of a 50/50 productivity bonus. It sounds like a pretty badly negotiated agreement to me. I know offices nearby just flat out refused to sign off anything at all, just because they didn't want to do longs and shorts!