It is what every union does

[aiden01]

So too sum it up it a crap deal we need better negotiators hence may other post!

Why has a deal worth a yes vote in your opinion now become a no vote please explain.an please don't deny again that you were for voting yes you have been found out.

[k979aaa]

just do this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VTCkmvSwIjw have no idea

[scotchy1962]

Yet again Martin is trying to defend the indefendable on behalf of the union.
Look forget about the yes/no vote, step back from what the union and RM are peddling and have a good hard logical think about what is on offer here.
How will it effect you?
How will it effect your family?
How will it effect your work/life balance?
And lastly how will effect you going forward in your working life?
I have to say that what is happening within RM is just a example of what is going on in general within the workplace for years, we have been sheltered from it to a certain extent but its really here now. Basically verging on a slave economy but trying to hide behind the "Its what the customer wants" as the excuse and the use of data for everything.
Having read through this deal and decided how it effects you just decide if you can live with it or not and vote accordingly yes/no.
I think this is it for the union within RM in terms of power to defend us. If we vote yes we become their lackies, we might be better paid as a result but still its not for me. If we vote no, lets face it we dont really know what will happen, we force them all to think again but by going against the union we weaken them in the companies eyes.
Its probably the future until somebody gets to grips with big business and the need to instead of just making a profit and looking after your workforce, making a vast profit and feck the workers!
As for the union, its a unsure future as they have managed to alienate their members just as much as RM has and there will probably be a price to be paid at the end of this.
But then again what do i know, i am but a humble Postie!!

[taurus88]

If indeed this is what every union does, I would love it if the CWU could present a case study in which another union has been complicit in the sharp deterioration of an employee’s working life in just 12 months, while having the resounding backing of the workforce.

This is a union that also gave its members ZERO representation while they were suffering ongoing attacks in the workplace including the unlawful suspension of sick pay, impossible workloads, and sackings and suspensions for trivial things.

I don’t mind if the CWU feel that they have to sell this agreement, that’s up to them. But don’t take it personally if a vocal minority think that you’ve represented their interests badly. Many on here would have been better off not striking, that’s the reality of it.

[Nickvilla20]

If indeed this is what every union does, I would love it if the CWU could present a case study in which another union has been complicit in the sharp deterioration of an employee’s working life in just 12 months, while having the resounding backing of the workforce.

This is a union that also gave its members ZERO representation while they were suffering ongoing attacks in the workplace including the unlawful suspension of sick pay, impossible workloads, and sackings and suspensions for trivial things.

I don’t mind if the CWU feel that they have to sell this agreement, that’s up to them. But don’t take it personally if a vocal minority think that you’ve represented their interests badly. Many on here would have been better off not striking, that’s the reality of it.

I think many are angry after 18 days of strike action and the loss of £1k plus in wages we’ve end up with a polished deal of what Royal Mail wanted in the first place.

We’ve basically lost all that money for nothing and the people at the top of Royal Mail and the union are to blame. Both sides were totally unrealistic in what that wanted and the workers will pay the price for it.

I don’t think we will get a better offer now but I can see why you would vote no.

[LouBarlow]

How does voting No make you achieve any of these aims? What do you expect after a no vote? The union and RM will not suddenly magic up a new one. They have been negotiating for nigh on a year now and both have agreed this is it.

In all honesty the only reason I can see for voting No is if you want to burn the company down but even that won’t work. The reality is voting no loses your lump sum, loses your pay rise, ensures that RM can bring in all the changes they want anyway without any guidelines or push back from the union.

Voting no loses you any of the benefits of this deal and ensures you get the worst. And then some.

No it doesn't. If no votes exceed yes votes then it spells out to our union representatives that by making this agreement they are going against the wishes of the majority of the membership, who voted overwhelmingly in favor of strike action in response to virtually the same deal. It puts it in black and white to them and reminds them that if the membership wants to continue to fight these attacks (which is what this "agreement" is, in my opinion) then they need to do it and figure out how to make a better job of it. Giving up is not something that many of us are prepared to do and if RM give us the worst then we must fire back our worst at them because the job on offer cannot be accepted by many, and I believe, most of us, on delivery.

I’m afraid you are fighting a losing battle. We have no leverage at all. If both sides admit that this is it, then they aren’t going to ask people to go out on strike again, because there is nothing to be gained. Nobody is going to lose more money over this when neither side are willing to budge. I’m not sure why people are struggling to understand it. I get it, people are frustrated but this is the deal. You either embrace the few positives or accept that without it, your working life is going to be much, much worse.

[nuisance]

I’m afraid you are fighting a losing battle. We have no leverage at all. If both sides admit that this is it, then they aren’t going to ask people to go out on strike again, because there is nothing to be gained. Nobody is going to lose more money over this when neither side are willing to budge. I’m not sure why people are struggling to understand it. I get it, people are frustrated but this is the deal. You either embrace the few positives or accept that without it, your working life is going to be much, much worse.

1 I don't know why you wish that were true and I don't agree with that POV.
2 Wrong. We are making the shareholders money with our labour, we've made them a lot of money, the work is still coming and we're still making them money. Without us - no money, this is leverage.
3 "Both sides" are the same side - the management and the high up union personnel collaborating with management. We, the union membership, are the other side and "this" is absolutely not "it". Far from it.
4 We shouldn't be the ones to budge when we are attacked into being worse off. RM is the aggressor here, we just wanted a cost of living pay rise to go some way towards us not being way worse off for doing the same job. We've arrived at not only being worse off in that way but potentially worse off in terms of work-life balance, security in ill health, size of workloads, extended times spent working outdoors in harsh weather conditions.
5 What positives?
6 BS threats

[Nickvilla20]

From what I’ve seen in my office most have reluctantly accepted the deal it’s only the really senior guys or the ones who have family friendly arrangements who are voting no.

We won’t be striking again I have no intention of going on strike nor do the union. Unfortunately I think we have to make the best of what’s in the deal.

I keep seeing on here that there is a better working life outside of Royal Mail and that’s probably true. Maybe it’s time for people to asses their working options.

[norris9]

There is nothing like 'no finish time'! That will be challenged with or without the Union...

Delivery of mail and many variations that are involved make our job b ib Delivery (not processing) very much different the like of Jaguar or Land rover: within quoter weeks or seasons, you can still get spikes. Also the walks or round are still so very different that some are still working well over even in the summer.

* 10 or 20% drop in volume (which I doubt the top end figure) does not mean 10% or even 5% in actual work being done.

So the so-called seasonal variations will most unlikely work for most offices regardless of whether you know in advance or not. In fact, I will prefer the SISO method (with finish time, + 30 minutes flexibility), of course).

I shall like to see the managers micro-manage an SISO variations because most of them just do the same thing they have been doing for decades - winging things and just relying on the hardest workers to carry the office.

1. Their figures for mail drop off could be totally made up. Also, each office's stated % drop is different. The % for our office is much lower than the national %. If anything - it feels like mail has gone up. We used to have light Tuesdays and Saturdays 2 years ago, now everyday is at least medium levels of mail.

2. With my situation at work in relation to the hours I work and the increase in the size of my frame and therefore delivery - I am now probably only going to be able to deliver 50-60% of my round each day. I am going to have to do half the round one day and then the other half the next day, always taking out 2 days mail for those roads.

3. I don't really know which option Royal Mail want. In an ideal world for them - do they want everyone to be staying out and completing beyond their time, or do they expect a certain % of the round to be cleared within our contracted hours and then the next day the same % cleared including what was missed the day before, or do they want a mix of both.

4. If posties feel pressured to stay out and this causes more wear and tear on their bodies, which causes them to have days off sick - then with the new changes to sick pay - a chunk of what they earned in overtime will be written off.

[RTP]

There was talk a while back of certain mail (not 1st or 2nd class) being given a longer delivery window a bit like DTD I suppose or when mailsort never had to go out on a Saturday. Not heard anything since, but maybe that is still something that's on the horizon.

[nuisance]

I’m afraid you are fighting a losing battle. We have no leverage at all. If both sides admit that this is it, then they aren’t going to ask people to go out on strike again, because there is nothing to be gained. Nobody is going to lose more money over this when neither side are willing to budge. I’m not sure why people are struggling to understand it. I get it, people are frustrated but this is the deal. You either embrace the few positives or accept that without it, your working life is going to be much, much worse.

1 I don't know why you wish that were true and I don't agree with that POV.
2 Wrong. We are making the shareholders money with our labour, we've made them a lot of money, the work is still coming and we're still making them money. Without us - no money, this is leverage. Edited to add: There is also the USO obligation and while we know RM don't care about it failing, they care about being seen not to care about it failing and actually facing consequences for it failing, both of which would be problems for RM if we were to execute worthwhile strikes - leverage.
3 "Both sides" are the same side - the management and the high up union personnel collaborating with management. We, the union membership, are the other side and "this" is absolutely not "it". Far from it.
4 We shouldn't be the ones to budge when we are attacked into being worse off. RM is the aggressor here, we just wanted a cost of living pay rise to go some way towards us not being way worse off for doing the same job. We've arrived at not only being worse off in that way but potentially worse off in terms of work-life balance, security in ill health, size of workloads, extended times spent working outdoors in harsh weather conditions.
5 What positives?
6 BS threats

[LouBarlow]

1 I don't know why you wish that were true and I don't agree with that POV.
2 Wrong. We are making the shareholders money with our labour, we've made them a lot of money, the work is still coming and we're still making them money. Without us - no money, this is leverage.
3 "Both sides" are the same side - the management and the high up union personnel collaborating with management. We, the union membership, are the other side and "this" is absolutely not "it". Far from it.
4 We shouldn't be the ones to budge when we are attacked into being worse off. RM is the aggressor here, we just wanted a cost of living pay rise to go some way towards us not being way worse off for doing the same job. We've arrived at not only being worse off in that way but potentially worse off in terms of work-life balance, security in ill health, size of workloads, extended times spent working outdoors in harsh weather conditions.
5 What positives?
6 BS threats

It is fine to have a different opinion, which is why we are having a democratic vote on the deal, but I offer evidence to back up mine. I never seem to see likewise when people insist they are voting no or what they hope to achieve. We have no leverage, because there is no willingness to strike, and the union realise this, which is why no action was called after the last ballot and the deal was presented. The fact that you think union negotiators are deliberately working against us is ridiculous, and again, without any evidence whatsoever. I understand that the truth hurts, but they are presenting you with provable facts - finances are available and public record - the union have seen these figures and realise that state we are in - have you?

As to the change in T&Cs - yes, they are disappointing, but change is inevitable and has been since privatisation. I am surprised it has taken this long. RM do not care about you. You are a cog in the machine, designed to be worn down in the continual process of wringing every penny out of you, to make rich people richer. Welcome to being part of a capitalist society.

As to positives, I consider more money and a lump sum to be positives. Would I have liked an inflation busting raise? Sure, would I like more money and the job to remain the same? Absolutely. Both were pipe dreams since the start and the union should never have dangled either as reasonable goals. That is my major criticism of the CWU at this point. They should have examined the finances earlier on and not had everyone’s expectations raised.

As to BS threats. Again, I understand what happens if you have no agreement in place. Do you think that your working conditions will improve if there are no regulations in place at all? Nothing down on paper to guide us going forward? Without any agreement RM will bulldoze in everything they want. This isn’t a presumption, it is what happens in an unregulated workplace.

[nuisance]

It is fine to have a different opinion, which is why we are having a democratic vote on the deal, but I offer evidence to back up mine. I never seem to see likewise when people insist they are voting no or what they hope to achieve. We have no leverage, because there is no willingness to strike, and the union realise this, which is why no action was called after the last ballot and the deal was presented. The fact that you think union negotiators are deliberately working against us is ridiculous, and again, without any evidence whatsoever. I understand that the truth hurts, but they are presenting you with provable facts - finances are available and public record - the union have seen these figures and realise that state we are in - have you?

As to the change in T&Cs - yes, they are disappointing, but change is inevitable and has been since privatisation. I am surprised it has taken this long. RM do not care about you. You are a cog in the machine, designed to be worn down in the continual process of wringing every penny out of you, to make rich people richer. Welcome to being part of a capitalist society.

As to positives, I consider more money and a lump sum to be positives. Would I have liked an inflation busting raise? Sure, would I like more money and the job to remain the same? Absolutely. Both were pipe dreams since the start and the union should never have dangled either as reasonable goals. That is my major criticism of the CWU at this point. They should have examined the finances earlier on and not had everyone’s expectations raised.

As to BS threats. Again, I understand what happens if you have no agreement in place. Do you think that your working conditions will improve if there are no regulations in place at all? Nothing down on paper to guide us going forward? Without any agreement RM will bulldoze in everything they want. This isn’t a presumption, it is what happens in an unregulated workplace.

The strikes were solidly supported, despite the numerous (intentional?) errors made in in executing that series of strikes. The latest strike ballot was solidly supported. RMs narrative all along has been "support for the strikes is waning", yet the evidence suggests otherwise.

RM provide doctored finance records in response to every dispute, no one's falling for that one again. Anyone who claims to is absolutely in collusion with the agenda going on.

I don't expect RM to care about me, this workforce is enormous and as individuals I know we won't get any recognition, but not to be attacked into being vastly worse off is a small expectation to have of one's employer and something which I'm personally not prepared to tolerate, let alone support with a vote, and I hope most posties share at least that much self-worth.

Your standards for "positives" are lower than mine. If there were no money, and there's money, but lets say that were true and there were no money, that would be because RM have shared it all out amongst everyone except the people who earned it. This is not valid inspiration for us to volunteer conceding to be worse off.

Let them try, all it takes is organised non-compliance. If we need to kick out our union top brass, that's what needs to happen.

[stevejm]

For example the ghosting boys in our office have all been off with hernia ops. We will all now be expected to do, on a daily basis, what they were once paid handsomely for.

what are ghosting boys? never heard that one before

[TopperGas]

But you've zero evidence if we kick out the union top brass they'll do any better? The CWU is not like a football club where there's a long line of managers available if they sack the one presently in charge.

As the other poster suggests there's zero appetite for further strikes and CWU members losing even more pay they'll never likely get back.