Delivery staff leaving royal mail.

[Basildon Bond]

"It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends upon his not understanding it.”

This is the real secret of life - to be completely engaged with what you are doing in the here and now. And instead of calling it work, realize it is play.
The Essence of Alan Watts (1977)

[TopperGas]

"It takes two hours of indoor work to prep and sort parcels for a busy DPR route, yet Amazon use robots and automated processes to do this work (they call it “staging”), meaning the same process takes only eight minutes - yes, eight minutes."

Is this really the case or a bit of fiction? During the Christmas period we had postie's leaving the DO at 7am on our DPR's and I'm certain it hadn't taken them 2 hours to sort their parcels, prior to joining RM I worked briefly at a Amazon solation depot and it seemed just as labour intensive as a RM DO, my sole job for my shift was to manually sort parcels into post code areas, not unlike sorting parcels into duty areas in the DO.

So you’re calling me a liar?

No, you had other posties like me coming in early over the Xmas period on OT to scan, sort and number the DPR parcels so the drivers could get out early, usually by 9.00 am. What you’re on about — a very small number of posties taking out some tracked items for paired walks at 7.00 am — is NOT a DPR. Those posties are instead doing a very small fixed round where it isn’t necessary to sort and number the packages. We have them in our office too. How can DPR drivers be getting out at 7.00 am when the IPS is still barely underway and shuttles are still bringing the work in!

As I have said, and I reiterate, the process of staging a DPR is mega inefficient and takes up to two hours for a large route. It requires scanning each parcel twice - once in RON to manifest, then once in Outdoor to identify the drop number so the parcel can be numbered. That means moving and handling the parcel twice just in this bit of the process.

And what is an “Amazon solation depot”. Do you mean an Amazon delivery station? Or an Amazon fulfilment centre? Not sure how long ago you claim to have been an Amazon associate but I can assure you that isn’t how it’s ever been done during my lengthy time there (though it may have been done that way in the early stages of Amazon Logistics (2016/2017). Given your Amazon expertise, perhaps you can enlighten us all about the staging process then? You are talking rubbish! The routing, sortation and consequent driver aid stickers (numbering of parcels) is fully automated and is done upstream (i.e. not at the delivery station) by Amazon’s algorithm. The only exception to this is at Fresh Logistics stations (grocery delivery), where associates do play a role in zoning and staging bags onto trollies.

I can assure you our DO had posties leaving the office to do DPR's at 7am as I was one of them, I got in at 6:30, picked up a PDA, logged in, did a van check, scanned my parcels to a DPR route, ran RON, downloaded the route to Outdoor loaded the van and was off delivering by 7 most days. No idea why you need to scan parcels twice as if you know the delivery route there's no need to number a parcel as you don't need RON to tell you how to load your van and you just delver the parcels in the order you've loaded the van, do you actually delivery parcels on a regular basis?

As far as Amazon as I only worked at one depot I can only tell you what their own practices were 3 years ago, regardless the more automated a DO becomes the less jobs will be required, I'm not sure that's a good move for your average postie.

Our DPR drivers were taking out upwards of 170 packets and parcels and didn’t have the luxury of knowing the route. Furthermore, even knowing the route, with that volume of parcels it is necessary to number them just so that they can be easily found, otherwise it is searching for the proverbial needle in a haystack. How many stops was your own DPR?

Why do you need to "find" a parcel if you have them in delivery order you just deliver them in that order, RONs only used if you don't know the route. We had agency drivers spending ages scanning and sorting etc parcels whilst the regular DPR's were loaded up and gone. It's pretty clear your not a DPR driver anyway

[twoloops]

We have a popular lad who has secured quite a good job & is just waiting for a start date, 6 or 7 long term posties are planning to give their notice the very same day that he does & others have spoke of joining in, crazy times!

[scotchy1962]

But sorry, just one point I missed. We mustn’t conflate “race to the bottom”, which should of course be avoided at all costs, with RM trying to emulate and replicate the very many positive efficiencies and automated processes that Amazon and others in the industry use — which is positive and necessary.

The company as a whole made over a billion pounds profit during the pandemic. It's a privatised industry that uses creative accounting to conveniently make 'losses' because it desperately wants rid of the USO which will allow it to make even greater profits in the future. These parcel hubs that RM have spent billions on could mean staff having to work into the night delivering parcels. Now from your perspective that might be great for people who want to work 80 hours a week in the short term; but it is not positive for most people who want a life and have a family to look after.

The CWU knew that this day was coming and aspired for a shorter working week to compensate for larger outdoor spans. Instead we got a pay rise but ended up working more hours due to seasonal variations.

I don’t doubt that creative accounting has been deployed — all businesses do it. But the fact remains; the old dinosaur does need to keep up. The product that RM continues to churn out, a clunky 12-inch B&W Television, is no longer wanted by customers, and they aren’t buying them. The customers want a 4K 75-inch TV. Sorry for the rubbish analogy!

But the processes at RM are unnecessarily clunky, massively inefficient and labour intensive. Some examples:

It takes two hours of indoor work to prep and sort parcels for a busy DPR route, yet Amazon use robots and automated processes to do this work (they call it “staging”), meaning the same process takes only eight minutes - yes, eight minutes.

Geofencing used by other carriers mean it is, in theory at least, impossible to mis-deliver an item to the wrong address, as the system won’t allow the delivery to be completed without supervisor intervention, thereby protecting the driver from lying customers denying receipt. It also directs the driver to the exact pinpoint location of the entrance door to the delivery point — invaluable if it’s a large luxury flats development with 12 separate entrances and/or you’re not familiar with the round.

You cite the parcel hubs as a sign of doom and gloom. Evening deliveries are demanded by a big sector of consumers, and in turn retailers are wanting to offer evening delivery as standard. New niche carriers like Hived are creaming this premium sector of the market and are taking the regular work with it - retailers are likely to go with carriers who can provide a one-stop shop for their needs.

But who said that people are going to be working 80 hours a week delivering parcels? I didn’t. If RM want, or need, to deliver into the night, they will need to recruit for a new twilight shift, no? People may of course volunteer for overtime, but it’s a massive assumption to jump to in suggesting people will have to work 80 hours a week. Indeed, no one can be forced to work more than an average of 48 hours on a given week - see the Working Time Directive for further info.

Hmmm yet again a RM postie who seems to know a lot about the process of us and other companies and is quoting it as the complete truth, i have no reason to doubt what you say about these processes as i have no knowledge of how other companies work. As a mere postie/delivery person i am not really sure what reason you would have to dig down into the process and start quoting how to make savings and improve delivery method, unless you aren't what you say you are, again i am not accusing you of not being a postie just wondering why you are so interested, RM has a process whereby you can put forward any money saving ideas, maybe that's the place for all this.
All these criticisms of RM method lead me to wonder why work at this old dinosaur? Unless working here is better than elsewhere, just a thought.

Hmm, how strange! And what is wrong with trying to understand the whole logistics process? Why is that suspicious or strange to you? Do you have no idea at all as to how the letters on your frame for delivery got there in the first place?! Of course not.

Yes, working here is better than elsewhere. It is the cushiest little number I have encountered! I have not for a moment suggested otherwise. Less work for more money is a key benefit. It is only the old guard who keep moaning how awful RM is but yet refuse to leave as deep down they know how cushty their number is.

Yes let's try to belittle somebody who has no interest in what go's on above their pay grade, good on ye.
Spouting on about how cushy it is for you personally doesn't mean it's the same for everyone else, blaming the "old guard" for all problems within RM as though it's the real reason for problems within this company, all reasons why people will push back on you and question your standing in RM.
But sure you're not a troll and in no way are you attempting to get peoples backs up.
Have fun!!

You can’t call everyone who you don’t agree with a ‘troll’ scotchy Big boys and girls debate doesn’t work like that. It is fine to have differing opinions of the job.

I don't call everyone i disagree with a troll, just the ones that are quite obviously here for the reaction. That's how big boys and girls talk, by telling the truth and calling things for what they are.
You know exactly what i mean!

[Smoothbackground]

"It takes two hours of indoor work to prep and sort parcels for a busy DPR route, yet Amazon use robots and automated processes to do this work (they call it “staging”), meaning the same process takes only eight minutes - yes, eight minutes."

Why do you need to "find" a parcel if you have them in delivery order you just deliver them in that order, RONs only used if you don't know the route. We had agency drivers spending ages scanning and sorting etc parcels whilst the regular DPR's were loaded up and gone. It's pretty clear your not a DPR driver anyway

Hmm, you must be right, Topper, because you say so. Would a picture of my van loaded with just shy of 200 packages and parcels assuage your misgivings? Probably not, but here is one anyway.

CF8FC9C4-E687-4244-9A6A-B9BED38A2D25.jpeg

[Smoothbackground]

[/quote]
You can’t call everyone who you don’t agree with a ‘troll’ scotchy Big boys and girls debate doesn’t work like that. It is fine to have differing opinions of the job.
[/quote]
I don't call everyone i disagree with a troll, just the ones that are quite obviously here for the reaction. That's how big boys and girls talk, by telling the truth and calling things for what they are.
You know exactly what i mean!
[/quote]

Yes, you do indeed label everyone whom you disagree with as a troll. Even the most cursory trawl through your post history confirms that that is your standard MO.

[postslippete]

Yes, working here is better than elsewhere. It is the cushiest little number I have encountered! I have not for a moment suggested otherwise. Less work for more money is a key benefit. It is only the old guard who keep moaning how awful RM is but yet refuse to leave as deep down they know how cushty their number is.

Great stuff. Let's try and keep it that way!

When I first started I used to have a 2 bag round and now I'm delivering at least 8 pouches, 20-30 big parcels and also collecting from postboxes and customers every day. To be fair I am on more money now but I'm certainly doing two or three times as much work. The irony is in the years before privatisation the company were still making £3-500 million in profit. Royal Mail have allegedly been losing a million pounds a day ever since Crozier and Leighton were in charge! And the truth is ever since Royal Mail coined the phrase "modernisation" I've never known a company that is constantly changing like this one. Maybe we needed to change, but while our competitors are still the 'gig economy' I do fear the worse for those who want to continue working for this company. I'm still getting those aches and pains from the days when we had to carry bags on our backs.

As for the old guard, there's little point blaming them. They see newbies on less pay, terms and conditions as a threat to their future and it really shouldn't be this way. That is why posties are leaving. If we are all doing the same job, then we should at least be on the same rates of pay? So if you're delivering 220 parcels a day and someone else is doing less than a 100 - why not do what they are doing, no? After all it's less work for more money.....

[postslippete]

I don't call everyone i disagree with a troll, just the ones that are quite obviously here for the reaction. That's how big boys and girls talk, by telling the truth and calling things for what they are.
You know exactly what i mean!

Maybe those who are constantly boasting about receiving their incentive bonus will get their comeuppance? No one achieved the full £500 which shows just how bad the scheme was and we don't get half the bonuses that the management team do anyway.

[LouBarlow]

But sorry, just one point I missed. We mustn’t conflate “race to the bottom”, which should of course be avoided at all costs, with RM trying to emulate and replicate the very many positive efficiencies and automated processes that Amazon and others in the industry use — which is positive and necessary.

The company as a whole made over a billion pounds profit during the pandemic. It's a privatised industry that uses creative accounting to conveniently make 'losses' because it desperately wants rid of the USO which will allow it to make even greater profits in the future. These parcel hubs that RM have spent billions on could mean staff having to work into the night delivering parcels. Now from your perspective that might be great for people who want to work 80 hours a week in the short term; but it is not positive for most people who want a life and have a family to look after.

The CWU knew that this day was coming and aspired for a shorter working week to compensate for larger outdoor spans. Instead we got a pay rise but ended up working more hours due to seasonal variations.

I don’t doubt that creative accounting has been deployed — all businesses do it. But the fact remains; the old dinosaur does need to keep up. The product that RM continues to churn out, a clunky 12-inch B&W Television, is no longer wanted by customers, and they aren’t buying them. The customers want a 4K 75-inch TV. Sorry for the rubbish analogy!

But the processes at RM are unnecessarily clunky, massively inefficient and labour intensive. Some examples:

It takes two hours of indoor work to prep and sort parcels for a busy DPR route, yet Amazon use robots and automated processes to do this work (they call it “staging”), meaning the same process takes only eight minutes - yes, eight minutes.

Geofencing used by other carriers mean it is, in theory at least, impossible to mis-deliver an item to the wrong address, as the system won’t allow the delivery to be completed without supervisor intervention, thereby protecting the driver from lying customers denying receipt. It also directs the driver to the exact pinpoint location of the entrance door to the delivery point — invaluable if it’s a large luxury flats development with 12 separate entrances and/or you’re not familiar with the round.

You cite the parcel hubs as a sign of doom and gloom. Evening deliveries are demanded by a big sector of consumers, and in turn retailers are wanting to offer evening delivery as standard. New niche carriers like Hived are creaming this premium sector of the market and are taking the regular work with it - retailers are likely to go with carriers who can provide a one-stop shop for their needs.

But who said that people are going to be working 80 hours a week delivering parcels? I didn’t. If RM want, or need, to deliver into the night, they will need to recruit for a new twilight shift, no? People may of course volunteer for overtime, but it’s a massive assumption to jump to in suggesting people will have to work 80 hours a week. Indeed, no one can be forced to work more than an average of 48 hours on a given week - see the Working Time Directive for further info.

Hmmm yet again a RM postie who seems to know a lot about the process of us and other companies and is quoting it as the complete truth, i have no reason to doubt what you say about these processes as i have no knowledge of how other companies work. As a mere postie/delivery person i am not really sure what reason you would have to dig down into the process and start quoting how to make savings and improve delivery method, unless you aren't what you say you are, again i am not accusing you of not being a postie just wondering why you are so interested, RM has a process whereby you can put forward any money saving ideas, maybe that's the place for all this.
All these criticisms of RM method lead me to wonder why work at this old dinosaur? Unless working here is better than elsewhere, just a thought.

Hmm, how strange! And what is wrong with trying to understand the whole logistics process? Why is that suspicious or strange to you? Do you have no idea at all as to how the letters on your frame for delivery got there in the first place?! Of course not.

Yes, working here is better than elsewhere. It is the cushiest little number I have encountered! I have not for a moment suggested otherwise. Less work for more money is a key benefit. It is only the old guard who keep moaning how awful RM is but yet refuse to leave as deep down they know how cushty their number is.

Yes let's try to belittle somebody who has no interest in what go's on above their pay grade, good on ye.
Spouting on about how cushy it is for you personally doesn't mean it's the same for everyone else, blaming the "old guard" for all problems within RM as though it's the real reason for problems within this company, all reasons why people will push back on you and question your standing in RM.
But sure you're not a troll and in no way are you attempting to get peoples backs up.
Have fun!!

You can’t call everyone who you don’t agree with a ‘troll’ scotchy Big boys and girls debate doesn’t work like that. It is fine to have differing opinions of the job.

I don't call everyone i disagree with a troll, just the ones that are quite obviously here for the reaction. That's how big boys and girls talk, by telling the truth and calling things for what they are.
You know exactly what i mean!

You obviously don’t understand what trolling is, but that is irrelevant really. You’ve called me one before, as well as a manager and other such things, because you don’t like what I have to say. That is fine. If that is your level of debate, to throw out insults instead of meaningfully engaging, then it is clear that any kind of constructive interaction is beyond you. I would just be careful if you go this route, as we have had one person banned for resorting to this recently. I genuinely wouldn’t want to see you go the same way.

Smoothbackground has clearly posted substantial evidence to backup their claims and opinions. They have obvious expertise in the industry and know where they are coming from and have justified their posts. You on the other hand have countered by calling them a ‘troll’ because you don’t like what they have to say, but have offered nothing to dispute it. It is lazy debating at best and insulting at worst.

[scotchy1962]

But sorry, just one point I missed. We mustn’t conflate “race to the bottom”, which should of course be avoided at all costs, with RM trying to emulate and replicate the very many positive efficiencies and automated processes that Amazon and others in the industry use — which is positive and necessary.

The company as a whole made over a billion pounds profit during the pandemic. It's a privatised industry that uses creative accounting to conveniently make 'losses' because it desperately wants rid of the USO which will allow it to make even greater profits in the future. These parcel hubs that RM have spent billions on could mean staff having to work into the night delivering parcels. Now from your perspective that might be great for people who want to work 80 hours a week in the short term; but it is not positive for most people who want a life and have a family to look after.

The CWU knew that this day was coming and aspired for a shorter working week to compensate for larger outdoor spans. Instead we got a pay rise but ended up working more hours due to seasonal variations.

I don’t doubt that creative accounting has been deployed — all businesses do it. But the fact remains; the old dinosaur does need to keep up. The product that RM continues to churn out, a clunky 12-inch B&W Television, is no longer wanted by customers, and they aren’t buying them. The customers want a 4K 75-inch TV. Sorry for the rubbish analogy!

But the processes at RM are unnecessarily clunky, massively inefficient and labour intensive. Some examples:

It takes two hours of indoor work to prep and sort parcels for a busy DPR route, yet Amazon use robots and automated processes to do this work (they call it “staging”), meaning the same process takes only eight minutes - yes, eight minutes.

Geofencing used by other carriers mean it is, in theory at least, impossible to mis-deliver an item to the wrong address, as the system won’t allow the delivery to be completed without supervisor intervention, thereby protecting the driver from lying customers denying receipt. It also directs the driver to the exact pinpoint location of the entrance door to the delivery point — invaluable if it’s a large luxury flats development with 12 separate entrances and/or you’re not familiar with the round.

You cite the parcel hubs as a sign of doom and gloom. Evening deliveries are demanded by a big sector of consumers, and in turn retailers are wanting to offer evening delivery as standard. New niche carriers like Hived are creaming this premium sector of the market and are taking the regular work with it - retailers are likely to go with carriers who can provide a one-stop shop for their needs.

But who said that people are going to be working 80 hours a week delivering parcels? I didn’t. If RM want, or need, to deliver into the night, they will need to recruit for a new twilight shift, no? People may of course volunteer for overtime, but it’s a massive assumption to jump to in suggesting people will have to work 80 hours a week. Indeed, no one can be forced to work more than an average of 48 hours on a given week - see the Working Time Directive for further info.

Hmmm yet again a RM postie who seems to know a lot about the process of us and other companies and is quoting it as the complete truth, i have no reason to doubt what you say about these processes as i have no knowledge of how other companies work. As a mere postie/delivery person i am not really sure what reason you would have to dig down into the process and start quoting how to make savings and improve delivery method, unless you aren't what you say you are, again i am not accusing you of not being a postie just wondering why you are so interested, RM has a process whereby you can put forward any money saving ideas, maybe that's the place for all this.
All these criticisms of RM method lead me to wonder why work at this old dinosaur? Unless working here is better than elsewhere, just a thought.

Hmm, how strange! And what is wrong with trying to understand the whole logistics process? Why is that suspicious or strange to you? Do you have no idea at all as to how the letters on your frame for delivery got there in the first place?! Of course not.

Yes, working here is better than elsewhere. It is the cushiest little number I have encountered! I have not for a moment suggested otherwise. Less work for more money is a key benefit. It is only the old guard who keep moaning how awful RM is but yet refuse to leave as deep down they know how cushty their number is.

Yes let's try to belittle somebody who has no interest in what go's on above their pay grade, good on ye.
Spouting on about how cushy it is for you personally doesn't mean it's the same for everyone else, blaming the "old guard" for all problems within RM as though it's the real reason for problems within this company, all reasons why people will push back on you and question your standing in RM.
But sure you're not a troll and in no way are you attempting to get peoples backs up.
Have fun!!

You can’t call everyone who you don’t agree with a ‘troll’ scotchy Big boys and girls debate doesn’t work like that. It is fine to have differing opinions of the job.

I don't call everyone i disagree with a troll, just the ones that are quite obviously here for the reaction. That's how big boys and girls talk, by telling the truth and calling things for what they are.
You know exactly what i mean!

You obviously don’t understand what trolling is, but that is irrelevant really. You’ve called me one before, as well as a manager and other such things, because you don’t like what I have to say. That is fine. If that is your level of debate, to throw out insults instead of meaningfully engaging, then it is clear that any kind of constructive interaction is beyond you. I would just be careful if you go this route, as we have had one person banned for resorting to this recently. I genuinely wouldn’t want to see you go the same way.

Smoothbackground has clearly posted substantial evidence to backup their claims and opinions. They have obvious expertise in the industry and know where they are coming from and have justified their posts. You on the other hand have countered by calling them a ‘troll’ because you don’t like what they have to say, but have offered nothing to dispute it. It is lazy debating at best and insulting at worst.

Yet again Lou you can't help yourself trying to get a reaction out of me, i am not calling them or you a "Troll" for any other reason than all you are trying to do is get a reaction out of someone. The very definition, unless you want to go for the scandinavian one in which case anybody living under a bridge and eating goats would be getting it in the neck from me.
Look Lou i couldn't really give a feck if you think i am incapable of debate, but to think you are on that golden plinth above the rest of us with your debating powers really takes the biscuit, oh and make sure you get that "person getting banned" quote in too. If the mods fall for that one i would be amazed.
Smoothbackground can make all the claims they like with their obvious expertise i will have to bow down to their greatness, but me and a few others are allowed to be suspicious as their has been infiltration before by people with ulterior motives.

[Smoothbackground]

But sorry, just one point I missed. We mustn’t conflate “race to the bottom”, which should of course be avoided at all costs, with RM trying to emulate and replicate the very many positive efficiencies and automated processes that Amazon and others in the industry use — which is positive and necessary.

Smoothbackground can make all the claims they like with their obvious expertise i will have to bow down to their greatness, but me and a few others are allowed to be suspicious as their has been infiltration before by people with ulterior motives.

Ah, I now see. So what exactly am I infiltrating and why? What ulterior motive? Are you going to resort to the stock accusation of accusing me of being an RM manager just because my viewpoint is different to yours?

[Smoothbackground]

Yes, working here is better than elsewhere. It is the cushiest little number I have encountered! I have not for a moment suggested otherwise. Less work for more money is a key benefit. It is only the old guard who keep moaning how awful RM is but yet refuse to leave as deep down they know how cushty their number is.

Great stuff. Let's try and keep it that way!

When I first started I used to have a 2 bag round and now I'm delivering at least 8 pouches, 20-30 big parcels and also collecting from postboxes and customers every day. To be fair I am on more money now but I'm certainly doing two or three times as much work. The irony is in the years before privatisation the company were still making £3-500 million in profit. Royal Mail have allegedly been losing a million pounds a day ever since Crozier and Leighton were in charge! And the truth is ever since Royal Mail coined the phrase "modernisation" I've never known a company that is constantly changing like this one. Maybe we needed to change, but while our competitors are still the 'gig economy' I do fear the worse for those who want to continue working for this company. I'm still getting those aches and pains from the days when we had to carry bags on our backs.

As for the old guard, there's little point blaming them. They see newbies on less pay, terms and conditions as a threat to their future and it really shouldn't be this way. That is why posties are leaving. If we are all doing the same job, then we should at least be on the same rates of pay? So if you're delivering 220 parcels a day and someone else is doing less than a 100 - why not do what they are doing, no? After all it's less work for more money.....

Some interesting counter points you raise, and I agree with much of it. The thing is, the old guard would have my complete support and backing, as well as that of all other new starters, except for the disrespect, rudeness, hostility and disdain shown universally to us as a group of new starters by a good 10% of the longstanding workforce. They are what I call the bad apples - a small but sizeable minority.

[scotchy1962]

But sorry, just one point I missed. We mustn’t conflate “race to the bottom”, which should of course be avoided at all costs, with RM trying to emulate and replicate the very many positive efficiencies and automated processes that Amazon and others in the industry use — which is positive and necessary.

Smoothbackground can make all the claims they like with their obvious expertise i will have to bow down to their greatness, but me and a few others are allowed to be suspicious as their has been infiltration before by people with ulterior motives.

Ah, I now see. So what exactly am I infiltrating and why? What ulterior motive? Are you going to resort to the stock accusation of accusing me of being an RM manager just because my viewpoint is different to yours?

Read what i wrote, then when you realise i have accused you personally of nothing, get on with your life.
Or are you looking to get a reaction? In which case i revert you back to the "Troll" clause (Non-scandinavian).

[clashcityrocker]

Not only is this debate unbearably boring but ( and I know I do tend to harp on about this) you don't have to quote the last 10 posts to make your next (unbearably boring) point.
It makes it boring and unreadable.

Try learning to use the quote function properly and try getting a life.

[LouBarlow]

Not only is this debate unbearably boring but ( and I know I do tend to harp on about this) you don't have to quote the last 10 posts to make your next (unbearably boring) point.
It makes it boring and unreadable.

Try learning to use the quote function properly and try getting a life.

Maybe don’t try and accuse others of having no life, when you are sitting on 14,000 posts on an internet forum? That and perhaps try contributing more besides drive-by criticism. You post less about the job than even scotchy.